Lemon Juice And Salt Test

[jbbishop]

I was actually interested in making an entire line of black box minibrewing kits a few years ago with various wine concentrates and including the book with it to benefit everyone from novice to advanced brewers since you cannot find a book like it anywhere on the market, one simply does not exist. So, in that sense I suppose there might still be an interest in publishing it. I'm just not sure I'm able to take on any demanding or long-term commitments at this point. It doesn't need any proofing just formatting and typesetting. I used to be a graphic designer and in the printed direct mail advertising business so I would be up to the task but I'm not interested in self-publishing either.

 

[jbbishop]

Wow, I just had an atomizer for my supermini that I'd been using for a few days without any maintenance burn up and then it went totally cold. By burn up I mean I took the cartridge off and observed it as it was happening. It looked like it was super heating and glowing like a supernova.

Just to be sure it was cold I thought I'd try to clean it. Here was an interesting experiment: I put it in a bowl with some vinegar, lemon juice, a little salt and a little hydrogen peroxide all mixed together and heated gently on a coffeemaker hotplate for up to 10 minutes, soaked in clean water, rinsed thoroughly blew it out and dried. Still cold.

Something about this combo corroded the visible copper contacts and threads turning them a sort of brass color with grey oxidation and the threads are no longer smooth but rough and ragged.

Something to think about.

 

[kinabaloo]

Perhaps that was the cleaning cycle - but a bit too late perhaps.

The corrosion on the threads might not be true corrosion - sounds like it has removed the 'brass' from the steel. That brass-looking coating might be more like paint than a true plating,; not sure.

 

[bluewolf]

Has anyone tried muriatic acid? also known as hydrochloric acid.
You can get it at any home improvement type store.
They use it for cleaning and descaling concrete before staining.
(Of course you would end up with a shiney metal atimizer afterwards as the paint would be eaten off.)

Muriatic Acid is a strong, corrosive, inorganic acid (HCl), manufactured by absorbing hydrogen chloride in water. It is one of the most corrosive of acids, and is particularly destructive to cellulose, breaking the cellulose chain into even smaller units, resulting ultimately in its complete hydrolysis. It is the same chemical as Hydrochloric Acid.

Uses include cleaning brick, etching concrete, cleaning metal and for swimming pool maintenance. Will attack varnish, fabrics, metals, plastics, most paints and many other materials. Can be diluted with water.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4032

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Has anyone tried muriatic acid? also known as hydrochloric acid.
You can get it at any home improvement type store.
They use it for cleaning and descaling concrete before staining.

Heads up guys--we have repeated that muriatic acid is out and not open to disussion here!!!! It is bad news and dangerous--so lets keep the topics off the hard core chemicals for the experiments and zero in on things that people can use that are SAFE--Thanks again---Sun

 

[~Wonder]

Heads up guys--we have repeated that muriatic acid is out and not open to disussion here!!!! It is bad news and dangerous--so lets keep the topics off the hard core chemicals for the experiments and zero in on things that people can use that are SAFE--Thanks again---Sun

We should have a sticky thread of stuff we really do not recommend to use.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

We should have a sticky thread of stuff we really do not recommend to use.

Wonder--we thought about it --but we can only advise people not to try dangerous experiments. If they do not use common sense and not heed to warnings --then they do so at their own risk and peril!!! Next time we see a post about a blatent bad idea like muriatic acid--we are just going to delete it. We expect that people have more common sense then that--Would they clean their pots and dishes and glassware with muriatic acid--strange at best---Sun

 

[klum]

I think it was Sun who said that one wouldn't keep using the same frying-pan over and over without cleaning it each day; after a week you just wouldn't be able to get the gunk off any more.

So it would be interesting to do an overnight soak everyday, starting with a new stomizer - to see if such a strategy would be effective. Perhaps cycle these 3: citric acid, hydrogen peroxide, and sodium bicarbonate.

From the baking aspect, our baking trays can become "carbonized" after just one day of use. We bake all day and clean our trays at night, but still get some carbonizing on the trays. It all depends on the substance that you are baking. Sugars and oils seem to do the worst. Enough so that we do need the carbon off stuff. It became obvious in the baking industry that cleaning everyday helps (and is needed, you wouldn't cook your dinner and use the same pan without cleaning everyday, right?), we would have all black baking trays in days if we didn't clean everyday.

I've read through many of these threads on cleaning atomizers, but I'm wondering has anyone just broken off some of the substance and tried to dissolve it in various chemicals yet? Wouldn't that be an easy way to see which substance works best? Is that practical with the amounts on a burnt out atomizer?

kevin

 

[exogenesis]

Wonder--we thought about it --but we can only advise people not to try dangerous experiments. If they do not use common sense and not heed to warnings --then they do so at their own risk and peril!!! Next time we see a post about a blatent bad idea like muriatic acid--we are just going to delete it. We expect that people have more common sense then that--Would they clean their pots and dishes and glassware with muriatic acid--strange at best---Sun

Sun Vaporer,

This would include concentrated phosphoric acid ?

This is not meant to be an argument starter, but I think we'd better be clear about the risks
of the chemicals we are talking about.

Muriatic acid is just another (old) name for hydrochloric acid, of no particular strength.
Stomach acid is hydrochloric acid, and weighs in at up to 0.4% concentration.

I would rather handle conc. phosphoric acid than conc. HCl any day.
But both should be treated with equal safety & caution, the stronger the more caution.
e.g. particularly the ice-maker cleaning solutions !

We have already got people using this 25% to 80% phos.acid due to
reading this as a cleaning method by posts in this forum.
(along with strong warnings, which is good )

I would say that there's a danger of the 'safe-sounding' commercial names
giving the impression that a strong chemical is a' household agent' with a
'lower risk' for usage, or even make people blase about them.

Compare strong hydrochloric with strong sulphuric acids, I'd far rather handle
strong HCl than strong H2SO4, I have large bottles of the latter (90% conc) sold as
'drain unblocker' from town stores, with a pretty purple colour.
It is massively more dangerous to handle than HCl,
at least the instructions say used goggles & gloves.

Vinegar is 5% acetic acid, Lemon Juice is 5% citric acid (stonger than you thought?),
which have approximately similar immediate acidities to a 0.5 % HCl (Muriatic) acid solution.

It is the high concentration of all these 'ordinary simple' acids we are talking about that is dangerous,
not necesarily the type of acid, particularly with high strengths that give viscous liquids,
these can cling to skin & wash off less immediately under water.
(e.g. strong phosphoric acid).

From the point of view of danger to e.g. clothing:
a drop of conc sulphuric would cause a burn hole straight away,
a drop of any dilute acid would dry & concentrate & attack the cloth.
When you next took the clothing out of the washing machine - oh look, a hole.

No need to attach any particular danger to any particular acid,
it is the strong solutions that are dangerous, not the acid type.

I'd hope we wouldn't get paranoid about any particular simple acid.

Hope that didn't sound argumentative, it was just meant to clarify things.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Sun Vaporer,

This would include concentrated phosphoric acid ?

This is not meant to be an argument starter, but I think we'd better be clear about the risks
of the chemicals we are talking about.

Muriatic acid is just another (old) name for hydrochloric acid, of no particular strength.
Stomach acid is hydrochloric acid, and weighs in at up to 0.4% concentration.

I would rather handle conc. phosphoric acid than conc. HCl any day.
But both should be treated with equal safety & caution, the stronger the more caution.
e.g. particularly the ice-maker cleaning solutions !

We have already got people using this 25% to 80% phos.acid due to
reading this as a cleaning method by posts in this forum.
(along with strong warnings, which is good )

I would say that there's a danger of the 'safe-sounding' commercial names
giving the impression that a strong chemical is a' household agent' with a
'lower risk' for usage, or even make people blase about them.

Compare strong hydrochloric with strong sulphuric acids, I'd far rather handle
strong HCl than strong H2SO4, I have large bottles of the latter (90% conc) sold as
'drain unblocker' from town stores, with a pretty purple colour.
It is massively more dangerous to handle than HCl,
at least the instructions say used goggles & gloves.

Vinegar is 5% acetic acid, Lemon Juice is 5% citric acid (stonger than you thought?),
which have approximately similar immediate acidities to a 0.5 % HCl (Muriatic) acid solution.

It is the high concentration of all these 'ordinary simple' acids we are talking about that is dangerous,
not necesarily the type of acid, particularly with high strengths that give viscous liquids,
these can cling to skin & wash off less immediately under water.
(e.g. strong phosphoric acid).

From the point of view of danger to e.g. clothing:
a drop of conc sulphuric would cause a burn hole straight away,
a drop of any dilute acid would dry & concentrate & attack the cloth.
When you next took the clothing out of the washing machine - oh look, a hole.

No need to attach any particular danger to any particular acid,
it is the strong solutions that are dangerous, not the acid type.

I'd hope we wouldn't get paranoid about any particular simple acid.

Hope that didn't sound argumentative, it was just meant to clarify things.

People there is no arguing--it is what needs to be done as mandated by Smokey and further it is the pruduent think to do--what we are trying to avoid is people huring themselves--this part of the fourm was created to talk about experiments and not advocate the use of acids of any kind--Muriatic acid that people would be using is not the concentrate found in the stomach--it is a concentrate that I use around my pool and it is harsh and burns your skin if you get it on you--so these types of acids that can be bought in those kinds of concentrates are not open to disscution here at all.

Any mention of Muriatic acid or anyother compound should clearly state in the post that it is an experiment and not beng advocated and further to do at your own risk if you refuse to heed to the warnings. If the post does not contain that --then we have to delete it as we do not what anybody getting hurt here--that is what Smokey wants-----Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

I was quite shocked by the idea that certain ideas are off limits and posts could be summarily deleted. Surely it is preferable to respond to the post and a reader will see both sides. It is more dangerous if a reader does not see a warning about some chemical or method that they have thought of - they might go ahead with a bad idea because they saw nothing to suggest it might be bad.

In any case, what is 'bad' is not easy to judge anyway. It is not as simple as a list of chemicals.

I am not confortable with this. This is a forum for discussion labelled as 'experiments'. What I duggest instead is a brief warning as there is for the DIY juices forum.

"People there is no arguing" - I thought we could at least discuss the matter; it is a forum after all. I do understand your reasoning Sun, but the better choice is to keep things open; I hope you will reconsider.

 

[exogenesis]

As I said, there was no argument, just straight facts.

I assume that you definately need to extend the forum 'no-no' to the
ice cleaner then, for the same reasons.

The problem is going to be detecting the dangerous concentrations
of acids in any available 'safe sounding' cleaner liquid that anyone proposes.

This is not a personal attack SunV, or a denigration of any of your suggestions,
please don't take it that way !

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I was quite shocked by the idea that certain ideas are off limits and posts could be summarily deleted. Surely it is preferable to respond to the post and a reader will see both sides. It is if they do not see a warning about some chemical or method that they might just go ahead with their idea.

I am not confortable with this. This is a forum for discussion labelled as 'experiments'. What I duggest instead is a brief warning as there is for the DIY juices forum.

Kinabaloo--We have to self monitor ourself and use common sense--if someone whats to advocate the use of Muriatic Acid which just plain vilolates common sense--that it does not belong here. Again, we are trying to do experiments to come up with something that is viable and SAFE--any discussion off that is not on point here. I have not deleted one post but I can not keep reading and warning over things an idiot should know should not be used on an atomizer like muriatic acid---So please everyone and stay on point with products that are going to work for the mainstream and disclaim those that are dangerous right in you post--something simple like--Experiment--do not try or Do at your own risk --Dangerous. Thanks all--Sun

 

[exogenesis]

I was quite shocked by the idea that certain ideas are off limits and posts could be summarily deleted. Surely it is preferable to respond to the post and a reader will see both sides. It is more dangerous if a reader does not see a warning about some chemical or method that they have thought of - they might go ahead with a bad idea because they saw nothing to suggest it might be bad.

In any case, what is 'bad' is not easy to judge anyway. It is not as simple as a list of chemicals.

I am not confortable with this. This is a forum for discussion labelled as 'experiments'. What I duggest instead is a brief warning as there is for the DIY juices forum.

"People there is no arguing" - I thought we could at least discuss the matter; it is a forum after all.

Think I agree with your assessment Kinabaloo, either discussion is allowed,
or at least there should be a consistent rule covering similar chemical agents.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Think I agree with your assessment Kinabaloo, either discussion is allowed,
or at least there should be a consistent rule covering similar chemical agents.

I just stated it--do not through out thinks that noone would employ that are just plain common sense and disclaim acids that you are trying but not advocating---It is that simple. Look at the discalmer I put on my posts--you should what to do the same for the Fourm and for yourself---Thanks-Sun

 

[surbitonPete]

I do understand Sun's concern....there are probably some people out there that would simply pour any chemical they see mentioned in a thread on an atomizer and then vape on it....lol.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I do understand Sun's concern....there are probably some people out there that would simply pour any chemical they see mentioned in a thread on an atomizer and then vape on it....lol.

Thanks for your understanding Pete as that is exactly what we are trying to avoid!!--Apreciated--Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

Pete, Sun - people will use what they find in their garage, they don't need to see the name here first. We know that happens. It is better they see the name here and see the discussion of its dangers.

But do put a 'warning and disclaimer' at the start of the forum as with the DIY juice forum. You should do that.

Something like this:

"Chemicals, even household chemicals, can be dangerous, both to handle and to use. They can react violently and release toxic gasses when mixed. This forum is for discussion of experimental ideas only and any methods you might see here are not intended for general use.

If you decide to take an active part, consider carefully if you have the technical understanding of the science and the risks involved, and are urged to take all precautionary measures and be prepared for possible spills etc. All equipment should be carefully rinsed after use; especially any that will be subsequently used for food or vaping.

Disclaimer: ..."​

 

[exogenesis]

I would hope no-one would use a cleaning agent and not wash it out.

I just stated it--do not through out thinks that noone would employ that are just plain common sense and disclaim acids that you are trying but not advocating---It is that simple. Look at the discalmer I put on my posts--you should what to do the same for the Fourm and for yourself---Thanks-Sun

I understood the meaning behind the words.

Perhaps a clearer statement would be advisable,
possibly there should be a forum header, as Kinabaloo suggests,
maybe something like:

'If you wish to suggest a cleaning agent, please find out what it contains
[I]before[/I] posting it here as a recommendation to other users.
If dangerous chemicals, such as strong acids, are involved, you [I]must[/I] 
include a clear statement that the cleanser should be regarded as potentially
dangerous, and add that safety precautions are necessary.

That way you could categorise posts into 'candidates for deletion' and
'abiding by the common sense rules'


edit: Kinabaloo, good wording, definately need the rinsing bit, and 'at own risk' as well

 

[~Wonder]

I think a stickied warning thread is a good idea. Maybe it should also contain the various experiments, their results so far, MSDS, and potential hazards. You can call it "Read This Before You Try An Experiment" or something. Not a lot of people have the patience to read through all these threads. It definitely couldn't hurt.