Let's Talk Batteries

[JGD]

With all due respect, your answer is not correct. Electricity is not pulled from the positive end. Electricity is flow of negative charged electrons. In case of battery - if battery positive terminal (called anode) is connected to the negative terminal (cathode) via electrically conductive material (atty, piece of metal wire, bulb etc) the electrons will be released from cathode and travel towards anode, thru your circuit over and over again until there are no more free electrons in the cathode. Battery is discharged, and the extra electrons will be supplied via charger. Battery is charged now and processs can be repeated until the chemicals inside are depleted and battery is ready for thrash.

There is nothing magic about positive end. It requires the negative end for electricity to flow from the battery" i.e the same electricity is also "pushed" from negative end.

If you stack two batteries of the same voltage in series (as we do in PV's) total voltage between negative an positive end is double, but the current flowing thru the circuit is the same.

If you connect two batteries in parallel, the voltage would be the highest voltage of them two and if the voltage is different enough, the "stronger" battery will act as a charger for the "weaker" until equilibrium is reached. Each battery thereafter supplies half of the current that would be supplied by each battery in series configuration.

Hope it makes sense, this is just another take on Ohms law.

This is a VERY helpful post.. thank-you!!!

 

[JGD]

These are great multimeters: Super T Manufacturing, Innovative manufacturer of electronic cigarette products.

You can look locally at Harbor Frieght, Sears and hardware stores. It really helps to be able to meter your atty's and cartos also.

Great link.. I can buy both the battery AND the multi-meter.. and both at good prices! Thanks! If the 3.7 volt battery seems to be working okay now, do you think it's safe? Once you've over-charged one of these batts should they be trashed or can I keep using it? It might be my imagination, but the juice I've added in later (a couple hours after the Reo started vaping correctly and not burning cartos) in the day still doesn't taste as fresh as it did prior to the over-charge. Maybe I'm just being paranoid...it's not my favorite flavor but I used it due to the battery issues not wanting to ruin a bottle of my premium juice).

I've been using my Buzz Pro a lot more today where yesterday I used the Reo almost exclusively. The battery incident made me nervous.... and I'm so busy with 2 kiddos and a business it's hard to find the time to investigate these matters (which is why I've been up since 4 am reading/learning about this stuff). Thanks for your help

 

[nerak]

Great link.. I can buy both the battery AND the multi-meter.. and both at good prices! Thanks! If the 3.7 volt battery seems to be working okay now, do you think it's safe? Once you've over-charged one of these batts should they be trashed or can I keep using it? It might be my imagination, but the juice I've added in later (a couple hours after the Reo started vaping correctly and not burning cartos) in the day still doesn't taste as fresh as it did prior to the over-charge. Maybe I'm just being paranoid...it's not my favorite flavor but I used it due to the battery issues not wanting to ruin a bottle of my premium juice).

I've been using my Buzz Pro a lot more today where yesterday I used the Reo almost exclusively. The battery incident made me nervous.... and I'm so busy with 2 kiddos and a business it's hard to find the time to investigate these matters (which is why I've been up since 4 am reading/learning about this stuff). Thanks for your help

The AW IMR battery might be charged just right. What we find is the voltage does not drop quickly in them. You just might be getting the full effect of the battery. Can not say for sure until you meter them.

If they charge a little more you can just let them sit an hour and check them again. I use that charger also. At times the light has turned green and I have left them in the charger longer. I still find they are 4.2 when I pull them off.

With the multimeter it gives us the safety factor that is so important when using any battery!

 

[JGD]

I found out my husband HAS a multi-meter that he used to use for his RC car hobby years ago. He says he'll dig it out for me tonight But yeah, I changed my juice again and the Reo IS working fine now. Is there such a thing as a unit that drains excess power from an over-charged battery?? Just curious. Thanks for all your help

The AW IMR battery might be charged just right. What we find is the voltage does not drop quickly in them. You just might be getting the full effect of the battery. Can not say for sure until you meter them.

If they charge a little more you can just let them sit an hour and check them again. I use that charger also. At times the light has turned green and I have left them in the charger longer. I still find they are 4.2 when I pull them off.

With the multimeter it gives us the safety factor that is so important when using any battery!

 

[Mudflap]

I found out my husband HAS a multi-meter that he used to use for his RC car hobby years ago. He says he'll dig it out for me tonight But yeah, I changed my juice again and the Reo IS working fine now. Is there such a thing as a unit that drains excess power from an over-charged battery?? Just curious. Thanks for all your help

Yeah, there are such devices, but I highly doubt it would be cost effective for you to buy one.

What brand/size batteries are you using and which charger are you using? What's the rated ohms of the atty/carto you're using?

Using the multimeter to measure the voltages on your batteries when they're hitting just right, hitting too hard, and fresh off the charger will be very helpful.

 

[tmcase]

I found the Reo new users guide and the link to the 1600 battery Thanks! So I DID over-charge mine a bit... I guess I'm lucky it's still working. In the future I'll watch as I charge more closely, like I do with my 3.7 Powerizers. Exploding batteries or fires don't sound like much fun. I had a veteran give me a run-through and I don't recall being warned about over-charging these batts. I'll order a back-up ASAP just in case I did do some permanent damage to the battery. It took about an hour for vaping to taste correct and I changed my juice after awhile too....just in case in got infected with the burned flavor.

Where do I get a multi-meter? And if they ARE over-charged a bit, how do you handle it?

I got mine at a local hardware store. Even Wal-mart sells them.

 

[Rhapsodies Fire]

Also....it might be a good idea to let your batteries rest for an hour or two after you take them off the charger. I have enough batteries in rotation that none of mine get used right off the charger. I am currently using 3 batteries in rotation for each of my mods. 3 14500s and 3 18500s.

 

[gorman]

http://www.esigarettaportal.it/forum/batterie/20681-confronto-prestazioni-batterie-lifepo4.html

Here's a comparative test between AW, Tenergy and no-brand LiFePO4 cells. It's in Italian but graphs are pretty understandable. In case somebody needs help understanding them, feel free to ask me questions.

To be clear, measurements hardly confirm the official position mantained by ECF on Tenergy LiFePO4 batteries. Hence, I would like to know what this position is based on. Unfortunately the administrator doesn't accept private messages, maybe one of the mods could point him here?

http://www.esigarettaportal.it/forum/batterie/20681-confronto-prestazioni-batterie-lifepo4.html

 

[ufo]

To be clear, measurements hardly confirm the official position mantained by ECF on Tenergy LiFePO4 batteries. Hence, I would like to know what this position is based on. Unfortunately the administrator doesn't accept private messages, maybe one of the mods could point him here?

I have tried the link but does not work.
I try to put it again: Confronto prestazioni batterie LiFePo4

Briefly: experimental tests have shown that both AW that Tenergy LiFePO4 have similar discharge rates. The Tenergy can even reach the limit of 8C, therefore they are to be considered cells of good quality.

 

[Mudflap]

I have tried the link but does not work.
I try to put it again: Confronto prestazioni batterie LiFePo4

Briefly: experimental tests have shown that both AW that Tenergy LiFePO4 have similar discharge rates. The Tenergy can even reach the limit of 8C, therefore they are to be considered cells of good quality.

Try e-mailing the link to admin@e-cigarette-forum.com

It may come to Rolygate's attention that way.

 

[FeistyAlice]

I found the Reo new users guide and the link to the 1600 battery Thanks! So I DID over-charge mine a bit... I guess I'm lucky it's still working. In the future I'll watch as I charge more closely, like I do with my 3.7 Powerizers. Exploding batteries or fires don't sound like much fun. I had a veteran give me a run-through and I don't recall being warned about over-charging these batts. I'll order a back-up ASAP just in case I did do some permanent damage to the battery. It took about an hour for vaping to taste correct and I changed my juice after awhile too....just in case in got infected with the burned flavor.

Where do I get a multi-meter? And if they ARE over-charged a bit, how do you handle it?

Just dropping in for a flash. How did you determine that your battery(s) are overcharged? And what are you considering over charged? I have a TR-001 but I've never used it. What I do use, besides a special, multi chemistry, multi voltage, sensing charger (but it won't take anything longer than a 14mm long battery (or A size), and specifically for my egic batteries, are the WF-139 (3.7 volt only) and WF-188 (switch for 3 or 3.7 volt charging, and a Tenergy for 3 volt only. I've never had any of the three later, that I use for our e-g mod batteries, over charge, despite occasionally leaving batteries on charger for many hours beyond light turning green. I do not recommend leaving the charging batteries unattended, and we always unplug them when we leave the house, but sometimes, many of us forget.

Feisty Alice

 

[FeistyAlice]

I found out my husband HAS a multi-meter that he used to use for his RC car hobby years ago. He says he'll dig it out for me tonight But yeah, I changed my juice again and the Reo IS working fine now. Is there such a thing as a unit that drains excess power from an over-charged battery?? Just curious. Thanks for all your help

Just any FYI.... before I got the very inexpensive MultiMeters from RTD, I pulled out my non-digital, old meter. It was not sensitive enough for testing ohm ratings on attys/cartos. It may have been that the MM just wan't in good condition being stored improperly for many years. I would advise springing for an inexpensive digital MM.

Feisty Alice

 

[FeistyAlice]

Briefly: experimental tests have shown that both AW that Tenergy LiFePO4 have similar discharge rates. The Tenergy can even reach the limit of 8C, therefore they are to be considered cells of good quality.

Which Tenergy batteries are you making reference to?

REALLY???? Everything I've read lately, ecig and flashlight forums says that the Tenergy Small batteries, like the RCR 123A or 14340 size have C ratings of 1 or less. This is where the issues occur, with flashlights and e-cigs, in that the low C batteries cannot supply the voltage, that required by high drain applications resulting in exploding and flash fire incidents. The measured C rating of the AW brands, all chemistries, of the SMALL batteries and some of the xxxxFire Protected have enough C rating to work much more safely, with our high drain applications, flashlights and e-cig mods.

Big Tenergy batteries, with high C ratings are fine. It is the very small ones, used in our high drain applications, that have caused the big problems.

Feisty Alice

 

[ufo]

Try e-mailing the link to admin@e-cigarette-forum.com

It may come to Rolygate's attention that way.

Thank you my friend

 

[gorman]

Which Tenergy batteries are you making reference to?

REALLY???? Everything I've read lately, ecig and flashlight forums says that the Tenergy Small batteries, like the RCR 123A or 14340 size have C ratings of 1 or less. This is where the issues occur, with flashlights and e-cigs, in that the low C batteries cannot supply the voltage, that required by high drain applications resulting in exploding and flash fire incidents. The measured C rating of the AW brands, all chemistries, of the SMALL batteries and some of the xxxxFire Protected have enough C rating to work much more safely, with our high drain applications, flashlights and e-cig mods.

Big Tenergy batteries, with high C ratings are fine. It is the very small ones, used in our high drain applications, that have caused the big problems.

Feisty Alice

Have a look at the graphs. The numbers don't require Italian to be understood. Hence, either the advice against Tenergy is misplaced or there's something more that we need to know.

 

[gorman]

Try e-mailing the link to admin@e-cigarette-forum.com

It may come to Rolygate's attention that way.

Done. I think some sort of official position on this is rather important. Again, I'm willing to translate whatever might be required, although the graphs are pretty self-explaining.

 

[ufo]

Which Tenergy batteries are you making reference to?

REALLY???? Everything I've read lately, ecig and flashlight forums says that the Tenergy Small batteries, like the RCR 123A or 14340 size have C ratings of 1 or less. This is where the issues occur, with flashlights and e-cigs, in that the low C batteries cannot supply the voltage, that required by high drain applications resulting in exploding and flash fire incidents. The measured C rating of the AW brands, all chemistries, of the SMALL batteries and some of the xxxxFire Protected have enough C rating to work much more safely, with our high drain applications, flashlights and e-cig mods.

Big Tenergy batteries, with high C ratings are fine. It is the very small ones, used in our high drain applications, that have caused the big problems.

Feisty Alice

The green tenergy Lifepo4 (not the blue that are li-ion)
You can see it also in the pictures of the 3d I have posted.

The tests were conducted by an expert (a professor of physics).
About the warnings of ECF, I cannot know if they are based on experimental tests, or only on the data reported on the site of the Tenergy (which are, some times, only indicative and not conclusive, as also happens for the data about the amperage of many brands of batteries, which are often quite distant from the real values, as everyone knows​​).
Our measurements of the C rating, instead, are instrumental.
In addition, all this was also fairly predictable, and I expected it: if really the Tenergy LiFePO4 have a C ratings of 1 or less, they, almost, would not even be able to heat an atom and should have performances ​​ much and much lower than AW Lifepo4 (given that these last are certified as 5C cells ). But, this is clearly contrary to what actually happens (given that their performances are practically very similar), and, in fact, experimental tests have confirmed what was predictable.

 

[ufo]

Done. I think some sort of official position on this is rather important. Again, I'm willing to translate whatever might be required, although the graphs are pretty self-explaining.

I agree.....and well done

 

[madsen6466]

hello - so i've been wondering.

what's the difference between "AW 18650 Protected" and "AW IMR 18650" Does it make a difference which one I choose?

 

[gorman]

Ok, I got a reply from Chris (admin here, in case people don't know him by his name) regarding the AW LiFePO4 and Tenergy LiFePO4 tests that was conducted by an Italian user on esigarettaportal.it:

Hi Andrea,

Yes, those are interesting results.

Maybe Tenergy changed the battery but for some reason left the marked C rating the same?

It won't change what we recommend on ECF, because if the manufacturer says their battery cannot be used for this application, we are not going to say they are wrong and it's safe to use them. Above all we cannot recommend a battery as safe if the manufacturer says it is not.

If the manufacturer says it is a 0.74C rated cell (a cell marked as 750mAh with a max recommended discharge of 550mA), that is what we take it as. If they say it is a 4C rated cell, that is what we take it as unless shown different. They have to deal with the lawsuits, not us. If we start to recommend a cell as 4C when the maker says it is 0.74C, who will have to pay out if there is a problem? Us.

As a result of this test we might tone down our warnings about them but we won't start recommending them. That would be extremely unwise for us.

Up to now we have no confirmed reports of explosions with Li-FePo4 cells, they simply meltdown if abused (for example if they have been charged in a standard lithium cell charger perhaps). There is one report of a meltdown like this. More commonly, a Li-FePo4 cell will just stop working. So (from a personal perspective) if people want to use them beyond the maker's marked C rating then there seems less risk than for the equivalent use of Li-ion cells - but ECF is not going to say that.

When the maker says it is a 0.74C cell then we will take them at their word as that is the only safe option for us. Others can do what they like.

Personally, I use the best batteries I can buy, and if necessary I would go short on something else in order to do that. If you think it is a good idea to buy the cheapest possible batteries, double them up, put them in a solid metal tube, hold the tube in front of your face, then overload them 4x the manufacturer's recommended load - then good luck to you. Seeing as we know this is a proven route to a trip to the ER, I think this is unwise. Telling other people to do it too is irresponsible. For ECF to do this would be utterly crazy.

Also you need to think about the counterfeit angle. There will almost certainly be a lot of Tenergy batteries out there that aren't Tenergy, and may not even be Li-FePo4. Batteries are cloned a lot as they are cheap to counterfeit. So if you are going to tell people that Tenergy cells are OK to double up and put in front of your face in a metal tube then overload them, be aware that a percentage of those cells won't be Tenergy and might even be Li-ion cells - the counterfeiters will use whatever the cheapest option is. They take reject cells and the cheapest rubbish they can find, strip the jackets, re-cover them, and sell them on as Tenergy or whatever. Just something else to consider.


If you would like to post this in the relevant thread then you have my permission to do so.


Chris

I actually had confirmation from scarab30 that his friend was using Tenergy LiFePO4 batteries when his incident happened. But that, obviously, is not by itself conclusive evidence, especially when considered with the aforementioned test results.