New Atomizer Prototype

[roadkilldeluxe]

Haha, I came across that page yesterday. Cool stuff! Also, while listening to music, I found this awesome album cover:

I'd love to make a bulb like that...

P.S. I replied to your other thread before I read here that you were done posting there

 

[jxmiller]

Roadkilldeluxe,

In your last post you had the device on for much longer (55 seconds) than needed for the application of vapeing( I hope ). Before you try a run like that again please attempt to run it differently than 55 seconds straight. I suggest having a e-cig handy. When you puff on your e-cig, turn the power on until you are done with your hit. Repeat this process until you are done vaporizing. Make note of how much vapor was produced by the prototype. Increase the length of time you have it powered on if you think it needs it to produce the correct amount of vapor. I think a stress test is good an necessary, but try to see what happens in a more common situation first perhaps, then after you get the results go ahead and see what makes it break . I think when testing outside of a device your vapor production could be far less than it would be if you have the device fully completed.

All of you guys are amazing.

 

[leaford]

That's some damn fine work, there. Good luck with it, if it works it could change a LOT.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

jxmiller-
Haha, good idea, I guess 55 seconds may have been a bit too stressful to be realistic

I kind of wish one of my atomizers would die already so that I could actually test this thing for real. Maybe if I can rig up a connector for my 510 stock battery and then find some sort of metal tube to use as an "atomizer housing" I could actually try puffing on it while it's in an enclosed space. I am personally not too worried about inhaling epoxy (which I doubt will happen anyway, with regular vaping). Thanks for the tips

I'd like to build another one soon. And that spot-welder. And I need to buy a multimeter. If only I had a way to melt those Pyrex tubes... that would be perfect... Bah.

 

[jxmiller]

Roadkilldeluxe,

I see that pyrex on amazon. I wonder if it would be feasible to get 2 different diameters placing one inside the other. the NiCR coil could wrap around the inner tube. So the wire would wrap around the smaller tube, then place the smaller tube inside the larger tube. Are there any issues with the nicrome touching the pyrex?

Also, I have not read 100% of this thread, yet, but I want to make sure you are using gloves and such while handling the glass and wire. Your oils are bad bad bad when it comes to that kind of heat. Just make sure the surfaces of all materials are clean of any oils. I have a feeling you already know that.


Another thought. Would require being able to cut those tubes in half though.

Everything I have seen is vertical. What ideas could you come up with horizontal? Here is mine. Take 2 different diameter tubes of that pyrex (one 4mm and one 5-6mm). cut them down to a bit less than the width of the housing it will finally be going in once complete. Now we are talking laying the end product sideways in the pot, not pointing straight up. Onc you have the width cut the tubes in half vertically. This leaves you with 2 "C" shaped pieces one big "C" and one little "c". the little one should fit inside the big one nicely. Before they are put together though a run of nicrome should be run across the inside part of the large "C", then the small "c" piece could then be laid on top of the large one. In the end you have what you have already but instead a horizontal build. This one would end up getting placed inside as a cup where the juice could be held or wicked to.

It is ok to laugh, I used MSPaint.

--Well nevermind, stinky forums will not let me upload a image.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

I wonder if it would be feasible to get 2 different diameters placing one inside the other.

But what would be the advantage of having another inner tube?

Just make sure the surfaces of all materials are clean of any oils. I have a feeling you already know that.

I figured it was a bad idea, but i'm a little lazy Would rubbing alcohol work next time? And is it both inside and outside of the bulb that I need to worry about?

Everything I have seen is vertical. What ideas could you come up with horizontal? Here is mine.

I have not given horizontal ideas much thought. I'll have to think of some.. And i'm having some difficulty trying to visualize yours, perhaps you could upload the image to TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting instead?

 

[crip]

OK I didnt have time to read this whole thread yet but will let you guys know.. Im a glass blower and work in boro, which is hard glass pyrex..

I know from vaporizers I have made, it is a element inside of a glass tube with 2 holes one below the element and one at the end of the tube so you can get a draw of air over the hot ceramic element..

Dripping on this glass will not break it at these temps were not going over 500degs are we??

but heating the glass enuf to vape will be the issue especially with such a small element take way too long if it could even be heated enuf..

I was using 25 watt ceramic soldering iron inners to power mine.. thats for vapeing organic material.. not liquid drops..

If you guys can come up with some ideas and send me some parts I can do some assembley, like the wires out the bottom, niachrome all the way out I could probably seal like a neon electrode.. i have all the glass stuff,

so just something for you guys to think about..

let me know if I can help..

 

[crip]

there is some of my work on my website if you guys want to see it..

I cant post a link so just check my profile

 

[jxmiller]

But what would be the advantage of having another inner tube?

Easier build? I also think that in this configuration you can drip in the cup, it kind of holds liquid.

I figured it was a bad idea, but i'm a little lazy Would rubbing alcohol work next time? And is it both inside and outside of the bulb that I need to worry about?

I have experience with high powered lights (street lights and above). If you get oils on the bulb you are risking the life of the bulb because it will cause the glass to crack much faster. In your case, keep the surfaces clean. I would wear gloves during the entire process or use tools for holding all materials. You will reduce the amount of cracks and such from heating / cooling.

I have not given horizontal ideas much thought. I'll have to think of some.. And i'm having some difficulty trying to visualize yours, perhaps you could upload the image to TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting instead?

Link

2 "U" shaped pieces one inside the other and the coil in between. Set it in device cup side up. An actual bowl type configuration would be better with a spiral coil but then you are talking more complex glass manipulation.

 

[jxmiller]

OK I didnt have time to read this whole thread yet but will let you guys know.. Im a glass blower and work in boro, which is hard glass pyrex..

I know from vaporizers I have made, it is a element inside of a glass tube with 2 holes one below the element and one at the end of the tube so you can get a draw of air over the hot ceramic element..

Dripping on this glass will not break it at these temps were not going over 500degs are we??

but heating the glass enuf to vape will be the issue especially with such a small element take way too long if it could even be heated enuf..

I was using 25 watt ceramic soldering iron inners to power mine.. thats for vapeing organic material.. not liquid drops..

If you guys can come up with some ideas and send me some parts I can do some assembley, like the wires out the bottom, niachrome all the way out I could probably seal like a neon electrode.. i have all the glass stuff,

so just something for you guys to think about..

let me know if I can help..

I checked out your site. VERY NICE WORK!!! I used to have a few nice pieces but I had a kid and now don't need those things.

I believe you can help quite a bit. What do you think about dipping a nichrome coil in glass (not sure if thats even possible)? Could you make it to where the glass would not break when the coil heats up? I mean like just have the slightest amount of airspace to allow for expansion if needed...

Thanks for your insight here, I believe your skills are going to be useful!

 

[crip]

thats the main no no cant have the hot wire touching the glass thats where it will cause the stress,, and why you can crack tubes that way.. with just a scratch, and heat ,

and it couldnt be dipped,, that would crack soon as it was heated.. the coil will just have to not touch the glass,, the glass needs to heat evenly, that keeps it happy,,

but a small tube could be made and a cup pushed into it like your saying above.. still need the hot coil not to touch but you do need the juice to get to the coil right?? to keep it from burning out..

and the atomizer could always be bigger for now testing purposes,, and necked down to cart size or however we figure to hold the oil and despense drips..


im not getting into the electrical part of it but glass i can help with..

 

[jxmiller]

thats the main no no cant have the hot wire touching the glass thats where it will cause the stress,, and why you can crack tubes that way.. with just a scratch, and heat ,

and it couldnt be dipped,, that would crack soon as it was heated.. the coil will just have to not touch the glass,, the glass needs to heat evenly, that keeps it happy,,

but a small tube could be made and a cup pushed into it like your saying above.. still need the hot coil not to touch but you do need the juice to get to the coil right?? to keep it from burning out..

and the atomizer could always be bigger for now testing purposes,, and necked down to cart size or however we figure to hold the oil and despense drips..


im not getting into the electrical part of it but glass i can help with..

I do not have the resources (at the moment) to make you a few coils with copper leads (copper shouldn't get hot and can touch the glass I believe). Can anyone assist here? I suppose if this guy had instructions and the electrical side he could make a few prototypes.

Crip, the juice does not have to touch the coil, that is the how it works now with retail atomizers. I believe we are attempting to create an atomizer that is easy to clean and lasts a lot longer amongst other benefits. In the retail units the nichrome coil gets gunked up eventually and breaks and have to be replaced every month or so. Some have had worse luck (me @ 3 weeks use) and some better.

I invision the tiniest glass "bulb" with the nichrome coil inside not touching the glass. The copper leads would go inside the glass and connect to the nichrome. Reading through this thread you could get a good idea of what is needed.

 

[crip]

got a good post to post but it wont let me.

 

[crip]

lots of good info cant post links so here goes,,

sweet video search on-elegance-of-homemade-vacuum-tubes

or add www to .grump.org/2008/01/on-elegance-of-homemade-vacuum-tubes.html


got this off D U E M T . N E T check it out..


Glass-to-metal seals are a very important element of the construction of vacuum tubes, electric discharge tubes, incandescent light bulbs, glass encapsulated semiconductor diodes, reed switches, pressure tight glass windows in metal cases, and metal or ceramic packages of electronic components.

The first technological use of a glass-to-metal seal was the encapsulation of the vacuum in the barometer by Torricelli. The liquid mercury wets the glass and thus provides for a vacuum tight seal. Liquid mercury was also used to seal the metal leads of early mercury arc lamps into the fused silica bulbs.
The next step was to use thin platinum wire. Platinum is easily wetted by glass and has a similar coefficient of thermal expansion as typical soda-lime and lead glass. It is also easy to work with because of its non-oxidibility and high melting point. This type of seal was used in scientific equipment throughout the 19th century and also in the early incandescent lamps and radio tubes.

In 1911 the Dumet-wire seal was invented which is still the common practice to seal copper leads through soda-lime or lead glass. If copper is properly oxidised before it is wetted by molten glass a vacuum tight seal of good mechanical strength can be obtained. Simple copper wire is not usable because its coefficient of thermal expansion is much higher than that of the glass. Thus, on cooling a strong tensile force acts on the glass-to-metal interface and it breaks. Glass and glass-to-metal interfaces are especially sensitive to tensile stress. The Dumet-wire is a copper wire with a core of an iron-nickel alloy with a low coefficient of thermal expansion. This way it is possible to make a wire with a coefficient of radial thermal expansion which is slightly lower than the linear coefficient of thermal expansion of the glass, so that the glass-to-metal interface is under a low compression stress. About 27% of the volume of the wire is copper. It is not possible to adjust the axial thermal expansion of the wire as well. Because of the much higher mechanical strength of the iron/nickel-core compared to the copper, the axial thermal expansion of the Dumet-wire is about the same as of the core. Thus, a sheer stress builds up which is limited to a safe value by the low tensile strength of the copper. This is also the reason why Dumet is only useful for wire diameters lower than about 0.5 mm. In a typical Dumet seal through the base of a vacuum tube a short piece of Dumet-wire is .... welded to a nickel wire at one end and a copper wire at the other end. When the base is pressed of lead glass the Dumet-wire and a short part of the nickel and the copper wire are enclosed in the glass. Then the nickel wire and the glass around the Dumet-wire are heated by a gas flame and the glass seals to the Dumet-wire. The nickel and copper do not seal vacuum tight to the glass but are mechanically supported. The .... welding also avoids problems with gas-leakages at the interface between the core wire and the copper.

Another possibility to avoid a strong tensile stress when sealing copper through glass is the use of a thin walled copper tube instead of a solid wire. Here a sheer stress builds up in the glass-to-metal interface which is limited by the low tensile strength of the copper combined with a low tensile stress. The copper tube is insensitive to high electrical current compared to a Dumet-seal because on heating the tensile stress converts into a compression stress which is again limited by the tensile strength of the copper. Also, it is possible to lead an additional solid copper wire through the copper tube.

If large parts of copper are to be fitted to glass like the water cooled copper anode of a high power radio transmitter tube or an x-ray tube historically the Houskeeper (not Housekeeper!) knife edge seal is used. Here the end of a copper tube is machined to a sharp knife edge. In the original method described by Houskeeper the outside or the inside of the copper tube right to the knife edge is wetted with glass and connected to the glass tube. In later descriptions the knife edge is just wetted several milimeters deep with glass and then connected to the glass tube. This is much easier, of course.

If copper is sealed to glass, it is an advantage to get a very thin bright red Cu2O layer between copper and glass. This is done by borating. After W.J. Scott a copper plated tungsten wire is immersed for about 30 s in chromic acid and then washed thoroughly in running tap water. Then it is dipped into a saturated solution of borax and heated to bright red heat in the oxidizing part of a gas flame. Possibly followed by quenching in water and drying.

 

[crip]

It is also possible to make a bright seal between copper and glass where it is possible to see the blank copper surface through the glass, but this gives less adherence than the seal with the red Cu2O layer. If glass is melted on copper in a reducing hydrogen atmosphere the seal is extremely weak.

Copper-plated tungsten wire can be used to seal through borosilicate glass with a low coefficient of thermal expansion which is matched by tungsten. The tungsten is electrolytically copper plated and heated in hydrogen atmosphere to fill cracks in the tungsten and to get a proper surface to easily seal to glass. There are also combinations of glass and iron-nickel-cobalt alloys (Kovar) where even the non-linearity of the thermal expansion is matched.

Another widely used method to seal through glass with low coefficient of thermal expansion is the use of stripes of thin molybdenum foil. This can be done with matched coefficients of thermal expansion or unmatched after Houskeeper. Then the edges of the strip also have to be knife sharp. The disadvantage here is that the tip of the edge which is a local point of high tensile stress reaches through the wall of the glass container. This can lead to low gas leakages. In the tube to tube knife edge seal the edge is either outside, inside, or buried into the glass wall.

Another possibility of seal construction is the compression seal. This type of glass-to-metal seal can be used to feed through the wall of a metal container. Here the wire is usually matched to the glass which is inside of the bore of a strong metal part with higher coefficient of thermal expansion.

Also the mechanical design of a glass-to-metal seal has an important influence on the reliability of the seal. In practical glass-to-metal seals cracks usually start at the edge of the interface between glass and metal either inside or outside the glass container. If the metal and the surrounding glass are symmetric the crack propagates in an angle away from the axis. So, if the glass envelope of the metal wire extends far enough from the wall of the container the crack will not go through the wall of the container but it will reach the surface on the same side where it started and the seal will not leak despite of the crack.

Another important aspect is the wetting of the metal by the glass. If the thermal expansion of the metal is higher than the thermal expansion of the glass like with the Houskeeper seal, a high contact angle (bad wetting) means that there is a high tensile stress in the surface of the glass near the metal. Such seals usually break inside the glass and leave a thin cover of glass on the metal. If the contact angle is low (good wetting) the surface of the glass is everywhere under compression stress like an enamel coating. Ordinary soda-lime glass does not flow on copper at temperatures below the melting point of the copper and, thus, does not give a low contact angle. The solution is to cover the copper with a solder glass which has a low melting point and does flow on copper and then to press the soft soda-lime glass onto the copper. The solder glass must have a coefficient of thermal expansion which is equal or a little lower than that of the soda-lime glass. Classically high lead containing glasses are used, but it is also possible to substitue these by multi-component glasses e.g. based on the system Li2O-Na2O-K2O-CaO-SiO2-B2O3-ZnO-TiO2-BaO-Al2O3.

Coe of borosilicate is 33 or so..


i guess just to much info

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

OK I didnt have time to read this whole thread yet but will let you guys know.. Im a glass blower and work in boro, which is hard glass pyrex..

I know from vaporizers I have made, it is a element inside of a glass tube with 2 holes one below the element and one at the end of the tube so you can get a draw of air over the hot ceramic element..

Dripping on this glass will not break it at these temps were not going over 500degs are we??

but heating the glass enuf to vape will be the issue especially with such a small element take way too long if it could even be heated enuf..

I was using 25 watt ceramic soldering iron inners to power mine.. thats for vapeing organic material.. not liquid drops..

If you guys can come up with some ideas and send me some parts I can do some assembley, like the wires out the bottom, niachrome all the way out I could probably seal like a neon electrode.. i have all the glass stuff,

so just something for you guys to think about..

let me know if I can help..

We want to be right around 220-240C. Any higher and some bad chemicals start forming. We could definitely use your help though! Thanks!

And I saw your website... awesome, awesome stuff. Do you sell those glass pipes or are they all "custom" jobs?

2 "U" shaped pieces one inside the other and the coil in between. Set it in device cup side up. An actual bowl type configuration would be better with a spiral coil but then you are talking more complex glass manipulation.

Ah, I see... it's definitely something to consider. I doubt I could cut any glass in half but I'm sure one of these glassblowers could....

crip -- I saw that video just the other day. Awesome stuff. And interesting info... unfortunately I'll never get to play with that stuff because glassblowing is so $$$ (at least to get started..)

 

[crip]

actually you can get started small scale for around 1000$ maybe alil more depending what ya wanted to do..

im actually workin right now on some artsy stuff check it out if you like

stickam-dot-com/cripskillz

catcha lata

and cant wait to contribute to this..

 

[Bubo]

Crip - you have some great stuff on your site! I used to blow glass, way back when I had hair....

We'll definately be able to use your talents here, and I might be intrested in some of your work too..

 

[moktarino]

I'm making progress, but I've shifted to a different forum. PM me if you're interested in knowing where.

I've made a few prototypes of what I've described and done some testing. Right now I'm waiting for a shipment of borosilicate capillary tubes (1.5mmODx1.2mmID) that I think will work well.

All in all they seem to be working, but of course stress tests are the real tests.

 

[Applejackson]

I like what Dan is suggesting with the ceramic system, however I've yet to see any satisfactory protection against inhaling broken glass with the other suggestions for when you're walking with your PV in your pocket and bump something unawares, breaking the glass. It would somehow have to be in a closed off system, which seems impossible since you need the air to flow through and over the heating element, then into your mouth. Glass is just too fragile IMHO. Glass dust would wreak havoc on your lungs, throat, stomach... pretty much everything with soft tissue.