New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

OK, I plan to play with thermocouples again this weekend. I am open to proposals for tests (that make sense).

One round of tests I plan on is I am going to mix the following juices:

• 100% vg
• 90%vg and 10% H20
• 50/50 pg/vg
• 75/25 pg/vg

I will then vape them in temp mode. Starting at very low 200F, and slowing increasing temp until I get:

• The start of some visible vapor
• A meaningful amount of vapor
• The beginnings of a burnt tasting hit

Recording the temps that I reach at each stage for each juice.

While my perception of "meaningful vapor" is subjective, nonetheless it "should" validate the boiling point concept. I.e. being able to lower temp setting if you lower the boiling point of your juice.

So, in keeping with the idea of guiding folks who only have VW mods, how do I relate these tests to wattage mode? Maybe record the wattage needed to get the same "meaningful vapor" from a cold atty (we know that chain vaping sends the temp higher with each hit). It would only be valid with my specific coil.

 

[mikepetro]

Stainless Steel Pan and a good Candy Thermometer?

I have SS sheathed Thermocouples to measure with, that part is easy.

Any pot or pan that I have would require more volume than I really want to throw at this, and 500F would probably warp the pan if there wasnt a lot of liquid in it. Besides, all my cookware is either anodized aluminum or cast iron.

 

[zoiDman]

I have SS sheathed Thermocouples to measure with, that part is easy.

Any pot or pan that I have would require more volume than I really want to throw at this, and 500F would probably warp the pan if there wasnt a lot of liquid in it. Besides, all my cookware is either anodized aluminum or cast iron.

Way, Way, Way back in the Day when talk about Thermal Breakdown 1st started to be discussed, I boiled some VG and some PG on the Stove in a 1 Cup Ravere Ware Pan. No problems with pan warping.

1801 Revere Ware 1 Cup Measuring Cup Copper Clad Bottom USA Stainless Steel

My problem was I Didn't have a very good Thermometer. So I kinda Shelved that project.

BTW - As I am Sure you know, but I will say it Anyway for anyone who might be Reading this. Boiling VG Hot. Very Hot. And if you aren't carful with the Heat, it can start to Splatter.

And a Glob of Boiling VG on your Wrist is No Walk on the Beach.

 

[mikepetro]

I will stroll through WallyWorld and see what they have, no promises though. Just to show my dedication, I have not stepped foot in Wallyworld in probably 3 years or more, I hate the place.

I will be mixing my juices at 36mgml as that is what I vape. No flavoring for the tests, just PG/VG/Nic/H20. So I would assume that even in the pure VG mix it will lower the Boiling Point a little as the BP of nic is 486F where VG is 554F.

LOL and yes, if I do this I will wear PPE, 500ish liquid splatter would not feel good. (wonder what temp bacon grease splatters are) I am thinking maybe outside on the wood fired smoker, with a bucket of sand and a garden house handy. It sits on a gravel bed so if a juice fire did develop, it wouldnt go anywhere.

 

[zoiDman]

I will stroll through WallyWorld and see what they have, no promises though. Just to show my dedication, I have not stepped foot in Wallyworld in probably 3 years or more, I hate the place.

I will be mixing my juices at 36mgml as that is what I vape. No flavoring for the tests, just PG/VG/Nic/H20. So I would assume that even in the pure VG mix it will lower the Boiling Point a little as the BP of nic is 486F where VG is 554F.

LOL and yes, if I do this I will wear PPE, 500ish liquid splatter would not feel good. (wonder what temp bacon grease splatters are) I am thinking maybe outside on the wood fired smoker, with a bucket of sand and a garden house handy. It sits on a gravel bed so if a juice fire did develop, it wouldnt go anywhere.

I think if you just took some Normal precautions (Long Sleeves and Gloves and Eye Protection) you would be fine to do things Indoors. Not a whole look different from Deep Frying Chicken or making Hard Candy.

But having a Class B (or ABC) Fire Extinguisher handy is never a Bad Call. Something that every House should have. But usually Doesn't.

 

[awsum140]

Mike, how about a Corning Ware dish? That'll handle the temperature without a problem and should be fine even over a flame.

 

[MacTechVpr]

So, in keeping with the idea of guiding folks who only have VW mods, how do I relate these tests to wattage mode? Maybe record the wattage needed to get the same "meaningful vapor" from a cold atty (we know that chain vaping sends the temp higher with each hit). It would only be valid with my specific coil.

I keep seeing this adage and I have to say here that while true, it's relative. Depends on the net efficiency of the build install and overall resistance of the mod/atty, it's efficiency and stability.

Have a copper Raiju/Raijin running 23/7 2.82Ø KA1 @.25 ish t.m.c. Nextel media I can take 3-4x good cloudy pulls of about the same sec duration, back-to-back. Never close to warm enough I can't pull the cap off with the bare digits even comin off a fresh 4.2v. It depends fella's.

Usually run a couple of similar mech's. Or I'll throw in a ≥.3Ω 18490 in the mix for a slightly cooler shift if I want to chain shorter more frequent draws. That, alongside a VW or TC at about the above res to .8Ω depending on media and power I'm running. Find pretty much the same vape temp and density with my builds with the corresponding vapor volume changes expected between these config's. The hot cap grab then becomes the ultimate test for the design selection and effectiveness. Seldom encounter anything warmer than I want to handle, chain or no. But the warm cap's a good warning of the overtaxed batt, defective or over-played installation.

My next question is…what's a dry hit?

That's why I try to groom new vapers on t.m.c. Data is always welcome but far more meaningful with stable baselines.

Sorry for the bit long one. Just wanted to share a little bit of my world.

Good luck.

 

[zoiDman]

I think if you just took some Normal precautions (Long Sleeves and Gloves and Eye Protection) ...

BTW - This is a Great Item to have for All Kinds of Projects like Sharpening Drills or Boiling VG...

Adjustable Face Shield

Great if you wear Glasses too. And if you couple it with a White Lab Coat it just screams "I Mean Business" in a Breaking Bad kinda way.

 

[mikepetro]

Mike, how about a Corning Ware dish? That'll handle the temperature without a problem and should be fine even over a flame.

I thought about a pyrex measuring cup.

Corning Ware would work. Just would like to keep the sample size minimal as the cooked juice will just get thrown away.

 

[Mowgli]

I was pulsing juice into the rayon when some dripped onto my hand.
Ouch it's hot.
I iced it immediately but it still blistered before I could even get to the freezer.
I won't do that again.

I knocked over a mod on my worktable about 4 days ago.
It had dry burned coils on it.
I had just set it down so the coils were barely un-red.
I heal like a superhero but this was freaking deep.
And it hurt. I had to re-dry-burn to clean my coils again.
Burning Man Juice yo.
Be careful out there.

I learned as a machinist that triple antibiotic ointment rules for preventing infection.
I just took the band-aid off so it's that TA that's making it shine.
I expect it'll crust within a couple more days. Wow.

 

[mikepetro]

BTW - This is a Great Item to have for All Kinds of Projects like Sharpening Drills or Boiling VG...

Adjustable Face Shield

Great if you wear Glasses too. And if you couple it with a White Lab Coat it just screams "I Mean Business" in a Breaking Bad kinda way.

Got two, they came in handy for rebottling nic (dont ask the strength).

ETA: Oh, and you can see my fire extinguisher in the upper right.

 

[mikepetro]

Pyrex beakers are out:

Upper Working Temp: 230°C (446°F)

Another source:

Pyrex borosilicate glass has excellent thermal properties at both high and low temperatures. The maximum recommended working temperature for laboratory glassware manufactured from Pyrex is 500°C (for short periods of time only). Special care should be taken at temperatures above 150°C to ensure both heating and cooling are achieved in a slow and uniform manner (see Care and Maintenance of Laboratory Glassware).

 

[Mowgli]

Nice faceshield Mr. P!

I used one for cutting spinning chunks of wood and applying finish on-lathe.
El cheapo but it kept stuff off my face.
PITA to keep it clean in a dusty shop and hot when wearing a dust mask.

1946 Delta/Milwaukee 14" bandsaw that I restored/upgraded from rust-bucket status.
USN soured my appreciation of the beauty of haze grey so I painted it black.

 

[mikepetro]

El cheapo but it kept stuff off my face.

Thats my other one!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Does adding H20 allow a higher vaping temp before the chemical reaction makes nasties?

Really good question. But it's a principal part in lowering vape temperature I believe and vapor output overall. I'm sure the data's been posted here from sev eng resources but this is a good sum up…VG and PG vs Temperature | atmoslab.com.

Researching this issue some time back and I think absent the discussion here I found that vacuum figures prominently in drop of the boiling point. It eluded me for a time why in some studies this was so precipitous for VG. It's evidently the water content and so to my thinking the question remaining is simply the proportion.

While PG% may contribute some decrease of the boiling point I don't see how this is the significant share of vaporization overall given the disproportionally higher exp rate of H2O to gas. If an increase of vaporization rate and vapor volume is being attributed to PG for its lower boil point it would appear to me to be a misunderstanding of what's actually happening. This would also seem to contradict the common assertion or assumption then that PG is necessarily a factor of or a better flavor carrier, beneficial or even needed (more vapor). It is not the causative agent. However, in my experience a moderate amount of PG in solution will enhance wicking flow rates varying only by recipe composition which makes it at least contributory.

Any tables or data on VG/PG transition point at <atm?

Good luck.

 

[mikepetro]

Did I mention I *hate* WallyWorld!

Ordered this for $14, should be here Friday. If nothing else I can use it as a butter warmer.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Interesting how that Function starts to display Asymptotic behavior when the PG is greater than 95%.

 

[zoiDman]

Did I mention I *hate* WallyWorld!

Ordered this for $14, should be here Friday. If nothing else I can use it as a butter warmer.

That's what Mine has been used for 99% of the Time.

 

[mikepetro]

Researching this issue some time back and I think absent the discussion here I found that vacuum figures prominently in drop of the boiling point. It eluded me for a time why in some studies this was so precipitous for VG. It's evidently the water content and so to my thinking the question remaining is simply the proportion.

While PG% may contribute some decrease of the boiling point I don't see how this is the significant share of vaporization overall given the disproportionally higher exp rate of H2O to gas. If an increase of vaporization rate and vapor volume is being attributed to PG for its lower boil point it would appear to me to be a misunderstanding of what's actually happening. This would also seem to contradict the common assertion or assumption then that PG is necessarily a factor of or a better flavor carrier, beneficial or even needed (more vapor). It is not the causative agent. However, in my experience a moderate amount of PG in solution will enhance wicking flow rates varying only by recipe composition which makes it at least contributory.

Any tables or data on VG/PG transition point at <atm?

The vacuum theory is interesting, and something I thought about, but dont have the facilities to measure.

Anecdotally it has long be attributed that PG carries flavor, and VG creates more vapor. Back in the CE4 and carto days, it wasnt uncommon to find very high PG ratios. While it was mainly for viscosity reasons, nonetheless it still worked.

I dont think increasing the PG % will "increase" vapor rate/volume at all, if anything it will reduce it. What I suspect is that it will lower the temperature at which meaningful vapor is produced. I expect a consequence of lowering the VG% is decreased volume. My goal isnt increased rate/volume of vapor, I am trying to find the sweet spot where you get good vapor (albeit not cumulus clouds) but avoid the 410F+ range.

Anyway, thats why I am doing these tests. Lets see if the testing backs up the theory.

And no, I have searched high and low, but I cant find any relevant tables other than what I have already posted here.

 

[awsum140]

A little late, but if you have a pair of tongs used for canning, a simple, empty, tin can would work really well especially one the size used for canned mushrooms. Alternately, you could kludge a handle right onto it with a couple of sheet metal screws. I don't think you'll actually be saving the PG and VG for vaping once your tests are done anyway.