New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Bonskibon]

Steam Engine provides Heat Capacity for any wire gauge and Heat Flux values for builds at any wattage.

It doesn't show temperature though and that's what we are looking for. Here is what I get with my numbers.

 

[cigatron]

Kanthal does not have a wide TCR to measure temp. Even the hexohm relies on human calibration by taste to achieve TC on kanthal.

I have tried putting a thermocouple alongside a coil to measure temp, but that had a ton of challenges, not the least of which was modifying the atty to accommodate it.

Mike, "Thebloke" had better results placing the thermocouple between the wick and coil id.

 

[Domejunky]

If it were me I would:

• Get two identical attys
• Build one with kanthal and the other with NI, SS, or TI
• Fill them both with the same bottle of juice
• Set the TC mod to 400-450 depending on what tastes best to you
• Then find the wattage on the kanthal mod that matches that vape.

@mikepetro

Thanks for bringing this conference to my attention in this and other threads - I spent the morning doing pretty much what you prescribed above.

I've always liked a cool dense vape - but now realise this is around 200°C - looking at the graphs, and thinking about the mechanics of TC, that doesn't give much margin for error. How did you arrive at your 470°F figure?

 

[cigatron]

OK, so lets see what sounds good.

- Keep the airflow high.

- Less VG.

- Less juice per day.

- Cut back on the long hits.

- Cut back on fast consecutive hits.

- Power as low as you can to still get a satisfying vape.

- Keep your tank well filled up.

- Good wicking discipline to keep the wick good and wet.

- Try and figure out what temp you are vaping at. Harder if you use Kanthal.

Don't know how much danger there really is or how much % good any of the above would do. But it's a start. Don't think it can do any harm.

Ooooooor, forget about all those things, go with TC and get more consistent flavor to boot.

 

[sofarsogood]

I have to be up at 3:50 am tomorrow morning for work so can't read the whole thread. Got through about half. The temperature of the liquid is the controling factor, NOT the temperature of the wire. If enough air is passing through the chamber the liquid might boil off cooler than the wire. If the air is limited the liquid might boil off at a higher temperature than the wire.

Don't assume that because you set your TC to 400 degrees, for instance, that that's what you're getting. I use an old fashioned rda with a stainless build and recently i'm using the Arctic Fox firmware on a Pico. After each puff i can see the duration of the puff, the max watts for that puff and the max temp for that puff. when the coil is fully saturated the watts spike to my 30 watt limit but temp is 300, 100 degrees below my 400 limit. When the coil gets reletively dry the temp spikes to 400 but the max watts needed to do that is about 5. (The 300 degree puff feels warmer than the 400 degree puff because the vapor is more dense and transfers more heat to the inside of my mouth.) I'm an MTLer, my typial puff is 1-1.2 seconds. I mistrust and mostly dispise the majority of these tobacco researchers and controlers. They care about something. It sure as he(ll) isn't me. I trust Dr F. i'm waiting to hear what he has to say about this latest round of vape terrorism.

 

[AttyPops]

Ooooooor, forget about all those things, go with TC and get more consistent flavor to boot.

OK.
This thread got me thinking, and I have a pico and a sub-tank. I have always used wattage mode, though and "regular" coils. I'd dial it down to where it got too harsh due to insufficient vaporization and dial it up just until "it worked". Vaped like that for years on various designs.

As to the "debate": to me, evaporative cooling on a "normal" coil (read not complex round 4-sided coils with octo wicks and such) with good wicking was always the main thing regardless of coil gauge. Certainly, thicker gauge wire changes the response curve and increases the safety-margin-zone since the response is much slower. But without evaporative cooling, I don't think it's good either way...burnt is burnt. This is why I've always focused on good wicking and cooling on all coils as a priority #1, regardless of gauge.

So I'm not freaking out. I am grateful for this thread though. It got me to stop and pick up some TC coils for the STM. Ni200's.

After a few hours, all I can say is that the vape is MUCH more consistent. I know that before, in Wattage mode, it would take a few puffs to "warm up" and vape well. And a longer vaping "session" may have gotten it warmer than I would have liked. But with good wicking I'm not too worried about my "history". Now, it's more consistent no matter what. And the "sizzle" is virtually gone! But it vapes well. Hmmm.

On the CE4 front...I think (just speculating) that it was a double-whammy. I remember using them for a while and tipping after EVERY puff, due to that wicking thing. Glad I gave them up for bottom coil designs rather quickly.

Anyway, to what cigatron just said...for a TC newbie like me...it's interesting. It seems more consistent. So I'm consistently doing better, or consistently making it worse. But at least I'm consistent!

So I think it was worth it to pick them up since I had the equipment anyway. And my rule is still "as low as practical".

All personal conjecture and experience and, of course,

Thanks for the thread, @mikepetro

 

[kiba]

I avoided learning about tc because I found the vape I like with kanthal.

What SS wire is the most accurate in TC and does 350j do SS accurately?

Thanks

430ss is going to be the most accurate, all I know about the 350 is it sounds like a rattlesnake in TC.

 

[cigatron]

Safer than smoking, almost certainly YES.
As for determining what temperature you are actually vaping at, the best advise I can give is buy/find/borrow a TC mod and compare it side by side with yours at various temps.

Yes, but for temp reference IT HAS TO BE the same atty (at least) and better yet a tc build with similar heat capacity. All attys cool the vapor differently AFTER it leaves the coil.
The point I'm trying to make is that if the coil overheats the juice the poison is in the vapor no matter how the device cools the vapor on the way to your mouth.

 

[mikepetro]

@mikepetro

Thanks for bringing this conference to my attention in this and other threads - I spent the morning doing pretty much what you prescribed above.

I've always liked a cool dense vape - but now realise this is around 200°C - looking at the graphs, and thinking about the mechanics of TC, that doesn't give much margin for error. How did you arrive at your 470°F figure?

I extrapolated it from the 50/50 pg/vg graph, which I think was like 480, and I knocked off 10 for a margin.

 

[AttyPops]

I extrapolated it from the 50/50 pg/vg graph, which I think was like 480, and I knocked off 10 for a margin.

Which, according to the graphs, 210 C = 410 F. That's where it all starts rising. So your number confuses me too.

P.S.
You seem to favor Fahrenheit? Just curious if there's a reason. Most science (and my device's default) is in C.

 

[kiba]

Yes, I've done the same, just for the purpose of experimenting with TC to see if I wanted to use it. The first versions with the Ni wire I'd given up on, wire was far too soft to jam in the rayon wicking, so it was back to Kanthal. I use twin 5 wrap 28g coils in an Aqua II most all the time, power set to 35 watts, tootle puffing to many of you, but that tank is a flavor beast.

Anyhow, I acquired some 28g SS430 wire to play with, sturdy enough to stand up to wicking, made the same coils I always make, put them in a spare tank. Popped a coil at first (did you know there's a setting in Escribe for the default temperature sensing wire type? Know what happens when it's set to Ni and your wire is SS?) Vaping this with Watts set to the same 35W and T set to 440, it just sits there at wattage and doesn't reach T. I know the material properties are different, but I expect a T deviation is negligible given the wire mass is essentially the same.

Tossed those same coils in a 'Mizer, had to bump the watts up above 50 to hit T (or crank down the airflow).

It's a pretty easy experiment that anyone who doesn't want to use TC full time can do in an hour.

Are you using a proper csv for 430 SS resistivity? I've never had a 430 build not hit temp like that.

 

[mikepetro]

I called it 250, just my own judgement call based on this graph and catching it before the curve shot straight up.

As to F, yeah, just habit, plus it correlated to this graph I got from Evolv.

 

[cigatron]

I avoided learning about tc because I found the vape I like with kanthal.

What SS wire is the most accurate in TC and does 350j do SS accurately?

Thanks

SS430 is the most accurate due to its high tcr value. It runs fine on my 350j with the manual tcr adjustment set to .00142.

 

[AttyPops]

Thanks Mike.

Right now, I'm going with 210C and trying to make it work. Due to this:

That's a composite from your first-page posts. I'm not arguing or criticizing at all. What I'm saying is "this is what I got out of it". Of course, with all things e-cig, YMMV, and that goes for all posters and users. Right now I'm set at 210 C. It may not "work" well in the long run though. Still experimenting.

I just thought it was interesting how, even with all of us viewing the same graphs, we get different interpretations of the results. Also, it's interesting human-nature stuff as to how each of us reacts to this news. From "meh" to "wow!".

It's a fun thread, and very informative.

 

[mikepetro]

Attempting to interpret it at all (even +/-) is in your favor if these guys are right.

 

[Flavored]

Are you using a proper csv for 430 SS resistivity? I've never had a 430 build not hit temp like that.

Yes, the one that is in Escribe. And, remember, the watts are set to 35 . . .

 

[mikepetro]

I just thought it was interesting how, even with all of us viewing the same graphs, we get different interpretations of the results. Also, it's interesting human-nature stuff as to how each of us reacts to this news. From "meh" to "wow!".

It's a fun thread, and very informative.

ROFLMAO, look at the uproar I got as it is, imagine if I would have went more conservative.

Really you did as everyone should, actually read and listen to the presentation, then interpret it for yourself.

 

[Eskie]

I don't know. Reading that graph, the inflection point, where the standard deviation bars are (which means actually collected data, not interpolated to fit the curve, is right about 270C. That's over 500F. The decision where to choose your "happy place" is a little loose, and needs more data. But I don't think this will be one of those 450F is safe, 460F is impending doom.

ROFLMAO, look at the uproar I got as it is, imagine if I would have went more conservative.

Really you did as everyone should, actually read and listen to the presentation, then interpret it for yourself.

What, you wanted to make it even worse?

No, you did us all a big favor in bringing this to light. It's useful in a few ways. Other than the whole "is it really safe or not?" stuff, it really illustrates that there are no simple answers, and even with folks trying to do real, objective research, it's going to stay a bit murky for some time. It also illustrates the process, and if anything, see that even folks without a vested interest (and there are some) will struggle interpreting the data in a meangingful manner

 

[pappcam]

What I don't understand is this new info isn't based on long term tests and seems fairly easy to do in a lab but it's taken this many years to be announced?

 

[AttyPops]

What I don't understand is this new info isn't based on long term tests and seems fairly easy to do in a lab but it's taken this many years to be announced?

Totally.
But some of it, I think, is due to "new tech" driving it...aka...TC coils.

Still, we need A LOT more studies and "runs" of this stuff, with real e-juice too...(some contains water, for example, and other chemicals that could alter this a bit).