New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Canadian_Vaper]

Does nobody do cotton burn tests these days? it really gives you an idea of how accurate your device is and lets you know at what temp to set your device..
Taken from Wikipedia...

Cotton - Wikipedia

Critical temperatures

• Favorable travel temperature range: below 25 °C (77 °F)
• Optimum travel temperature: 21 °C (70 °F)
• Glow temperature: 205 °C (401 °F)
• Fire point: 210 °C (410 °F)
• Autoignition temperature: 360 °C (680 °F) - 425 °C (797 °F)[67]
• Autoignition temperature (for oily cotton): 120 °C (248 °F)

 

[cigatron]

I have to be up at 3:50 am tomorrow morning for work so can't read the whole thread. Got through about half. The temperature of the liquid is the controling factor, NOT the temperature of the wire. If enough air is passing through the chamber the liquid might boil off cooler than the wire. If the air is limited the liquid might boil off at a higher temperature than the wire.

Don't assume that because you set your TC to 400 degrees, for instance, that that's what you're getting. I use an old fashioned rda with a stainless build and recently i'm using the Arctic Fox firmware on a Pico. After each puff i can see the duration of the puff, the max watts for that puff and the max temp for that puff. when the coil is fully saturated the watts spike to my 30 watt limit but temp is 300, 100 degrees below my 400 limit. When the coil gets reletively dry the temp spikes to 400 but the max watts needed to do that is about 5. (The 300 degree puff feels warmer than the 400 degree puff because the vapor is more dense and transfers more heat to the inside of my mouth.) I'm an MTLer, my typial puff is 1-1.2 seconds. I mistrust and mostly dispise the majority of these tobacco researchers and controlers. They care about something. It sure as he(ll) isn't me. I trust Dr F. i'm waiting to hear what he has to say about this latest round of vape terrorism.

No offense but it sounds like 30w is not enough power for your build. Let me explain.
If your first 1.2 sec pull is not reaching 400°f your coil is likely boiling juice at too low of a temp and not properly vaporizing the juice to cause the maximum cooling effect. Even though your coil temp is being calculated at 300°f your vapor temp could be soaring into the danger zone for aldehyde production.
For tc to be most effective at reducing aldehyde production it needs have power levels set high enough to quickly raise fluid temps to the optimal vaporization temp and then hold it there. The longer the fluid temp stays at a temp other than optimal the more chance of creating unwanted chemicals.
Just saying, lots of peeps have benefited by raising power levels to get rid of hot drip tips, hot tanks and hot spitty vapor.

 

[AttyPops]

Does nobody do cotton burn tests these days? it really gives you an idea of how accurate your device is and lets you know at what temp to set your device..
Taken from Wikipedia...

Cotton - Wikipedia

And then there's the "cotton wicking factors"! How many "nasties" can be produced from WET cotton, if any (it does turn brown/black)? At what temps?

P.S.
Yeah, I know you meant it as a temp test.

 

[Lessifer]

Does nobody do cotton burn tests these days? it really gives you an idea of how accurate your device is and lets you know at what temp to set your device..
Taken from Wikipedia...

Cotton - Wikipedia

My question isn't whether or not the coil reaches 410F, or rather ~470F, it's if the coil reaches 470F during regular use(not dry hit conditions) does the liquid itself reach 470F where it would spike in production of formaldehyde, etc.

 

[cigatron]

Does nobody do cotton burn tests these days? it really gives you an idea of how accurate your device is and lets you know at what temp to set your device..
Taken from Wikipedia...

Cotton - Wikipedia

I do with every new spool of tc wire I buy. I rely on the 420°f test to ensure my tcr setting is getting me as close to real coil temp as possible.

 

[cigatron]

My question isn't whether or not the coil reaches 410F, or rather ~470F, it's if the coil reaches 470F during regular use(not dry hit conditions) does the liquid itself reach 470F where it would spike in production of formaldehyde, etc.

Now that's a great question. Unfortunately I'm not a physics major. There is one thing I'm fairly certain about; when liquids are converted to vapor there is a cooling effect. Does that mean that the vapor leaving the coil is cooler than the coil itself? I think it is because it's evident through experimentation that an increase in vapor production by increasing power(up to a point) aids in cooling the coil.
The questions I have are how much cooler and what are the contributing factors to that temp delta?

 

[lynn508]

Wow There isn't much I believe in our closed society these days, but I'm glad I don't need 500 watts or I might be worried.

 

[AttyPops]

I would think it's hotter than the other liquid not vaporized, but cooler than the coil that put heat into it...even if that coil is continually being heated by the current. But air-flow would matter too.

So a 130 C pan bottom would turn 100 C water to steam which could be at ...idk...120 C let's say...but most of the water in the pan is 100 C (but we only care about the steam in our case).

But I don't see how it could be hotter than the coil, as where would it get the extra energy?

 

[AttyPops]

What's even more confusing....

Look up the boiling point of VG. 290 C. So how does it even vaporize with a coil temp of, say, 250C?????????

 

[mikepetro]

What's even more confusing....

Look up the boiling point of VG. 290 C. So how does it even vaporize with a coil temp of, say, 250C?????????

Curious indeed???

 

[Dubminer]

I would think it's hotter than the other liquid not vaporized, but cooler than the coil that put heat into it...even if that coil is continually being heated by the current. But air-flow would matter too.

So a 130 C pan bottom would turn 100 C water to steam which could be at ...idk...120 C let's say...but most of the water in the pan is 100 C (but we only care about the steam in our case).

But I don't see how it could be hotter than the coil, as where would it get the extra energy?

Maybe i am wrong but the way i see it is the temperature of the liquid is irrelevant. If in the test at 470 f being the coil temperature it produces carcinogens then how will the liquid temperature matter?

 

[cigatron]

(but we only care about the steam in our case).

Is all we care about the steam (vapor) yemp

Maybe i am wrong but the way i see it is the temperature of the liquid is irrelevant. If in the test at 470 f being the coil temperature it produces carcinogens then how will the liquid temperature matter?

What does the "reactor" temp represent in the graphs? Coil temp? Liquid temp? Vapor temp?

 

[Lessifer]

What's even more confusing....

Look up the boiling point of VG. 290 C. So how does it even vaporize with a coil temp of, say, 250C?????????

From the second video, Kurt says that VG with 10% distilled water lowers the boiling point of the solution to something like 180C(can't remember exactly), so, my guess is that unless you're actually vaping pure VG with nothing in it at all, the boiling point is lower than 290C.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

I thought they were waiting 30 seconds before firing again. Would be stupid to hold the fire button that long, who does that?

Most mods have a 10 sec. limit any ways.. it's wait time.

 

[oplholik]

 

[Uncle]

Hang in there... it's a lot of information that has been around for a while and now being interpreted and what it means for us vapers. I don't get it all either, but I know we will figure it out.

I really hope someone does and let's "US" all know soon without all this going round in circles . . . AND - Until then I'm out of here (Unwatching thread ) . . .

 

[AttyPops]

From the second video, Kurt says that VG with 10% distilled water lowers the boiling point of the solution to something like 180C(can't remember exactly), so, my guess is that unless you're actually vaping pure VG with nothing in it at all, the boiling point is lower than 290C.

And that's good, because at 280 C (below the 290) is where it breaks down and produces "nasties".

And PG would lower it too.

But we have people that vape "100% VG" liquids (albeit with flavoring). So...

Blows my mind.

But really, it ALSO makes me wonder about the actual temp of the coil.

EDIT: Yeah, and I'm not the only one:

View attachment 639555

 

[Lessifer]

Maybe i am wrong but the way i see it is the temperature of the liquid is irrelevant. If in the test at 470 f being the coil temperature it produces carcinogens then how will the liquid temperature matter?

There was a test where vg was heated, in a steel tube, and at 470F we see the big spike in compounds produced. Then there's separate data showing that vapers routinely get their coils above 470F in certain situations. These two separate things together form the theory that vapers are heating the liquid over 470F and producing the compounds.

So, we really do care what temperature the liquid is hitting, because it's the liquid reaching a certain temperature that creates the compounds. If a coil at 470F only ever heats the liquid to 450F, that changes things a bit.

 

[Katya]

What's even more confusing....

Look up the boiling point of VG. 290 C. So how does it even vaporize with a coil temp of, say, 250C?????????

Bwahahaha...

Here we go again. (Dear Kitty--I miss her).

At what temperature does e juice vapour turn to smoke ?

 

[AttyPops]

Bwahahaha...

Here we go again. (Dear Kitty--I miss her).

At what temperature does e juice vapour turn to smoke ?

Hi Tweety. Good post! We could use her in this thread.
But...I did say boiling point. Maybe the temp I show is wrong. Got it from google and several sources...

So I'm still confused. I get that other additives will lower the BP though.