New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Where did I get it wrong:
you found in worst conditions 100% VG 1,29 ug/per puff at 500°F. However more typical is traditional base with 10% water, so 0,271 ug/puff should be expected typically.

In your blog you reference a study which reviewed other studies and found 7.4 ug/puff on avg for tobacco smoke puffs.
This is about 5,7 times more for smoke compared to worst case 500°F 100% VG.
For best case with 10% water, which should be pretty common, its 27 times more for smoke.

You have said my work is inaccurate, other than defending my accuracy, I dont recall ever saying you got anything wrong.

I think you are missing the point though. My whole point is that HIGH TEMPERATURES GENERATE MORE FORMALDEHYDE, and some e-cig setups can meet or exceed that of a cigarette. This is a risk that is easily avoidable by choosing the right hardware, temp, and juice.

As for 10% DW being typical, I am not so sure about that. Ratios varying widely and there is a large constituent that does use 100% VG. I have never vaped that mixture myself, nor the 90/10 mixture, except in my testing. Many cloud chaser use 100% VG though, many who are sensitive to PG also do, I myself have always used 50/50 VG/PG.

Formaldehyde is a byproduct of thermal degradation. Temperature and juice ingredients are the only things that matter. In my blog "Best Practices" to avoid high temps on VV/VW mods. adding 10% DW was one of my suggestions, which was proven to work by the graph you quoted.

In my study I used this diagram for cigarette smoke, because I have not tested cigarettes myself. For comparison sake I have been using the lower value of 1.7 rather than the mean. All I have been saying is that at 500f you are approaching the levels in a cigarette, which is true in 3 out of the 4 studies shown in this table.

What are you arguing? I still dont really understand. Are you saying temperature doesnt matter? Are you saying that even at high temps the formaldehyde doesnt matter. Just exactly what is "your" stance?

 

[mikepetro]

gunked coils test. good idea. i expect some photos would accompany the readings?

Only at the end.

 

[englishmick]

And mint, why mint??

Damn them. I just recently made my first peppermint flavored juice and I really like it. I'm not going to bin the mint just because of those guys.

Looking back I started using cigalikes around 6 or 7 years ago, and better gear 4 years ago. I don't recall reading any bad publicity about vaping, or having to listen to people telling me how awful it was. That seems to have been a fairly recent development. Maybe around the time vaping started to pose a threat to BP profits and gov revenue streams.

 

[mikepetro]

Where did I get it wrong:
you found in worst conditions 100% VG 1,29 ug/per puff at 500°F. However more typical is traditional base with 10% water, so 0,271 ug/puff should be expected typically.

I think I understand your question now. That first graph I showed was not mine, it was one that came from the study in the opening post. I am not claiming to have tested the numbers shown in this graph. However, the numbers do correlate with mine, they show that at around 490 you start equaling a cigarette, and then it skyrockets as you get hotter. Also that graph was for acetaldehyde which I dont have the ability to test.

Please keep in mind that when I posted this thread, I was only sharing some other studies I had found. Reread the opening post, I was just sharing stuff I had seen at that 3 day workshop:

Committee on the Review of the Health Effects of Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS): An Information-Gathering Workshop
2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division

I had zero intentions of doing any studies of my own at that point.

 

[HansWu]

You have said my work is inaccurate, other than defending my accuracy, I dont recall ever saying you got anything wrong.

I reread my posts, I dont think I said you did something wrong or that your work is inaccurate, nor did I think something like that.

I dont recall ever saying you got anything wrong.

I was refering to where you said 50-100% higher exposure at 500°F compared to smoke. I didnt come to that conclusion looking at your blog and references, so I asked.

My stance would be that this might be not as problematic as it seems/ I wondered if the found values were harmful. Every substance is toxic with the right dose.

E.g. maybe my little test is fail, Idk, if I assume my device is "good enough":
If I set my non DNA device with arctic fox in TC mode to limit at 20W, then I set TC to 260°C.
At best with that wattage limit I reach 197°C while pulling hard. So the wattage is limiting the temperature.

20W is what I would use in wattage mode with my FEVs. If my little test is good enough Id think I wasnt ever at risk for meaningfull exposure in vw mode without ever thinking about it.

 

[mikepetro]

I reread my posts, I dont think I said you did something wrong or that your work is inaccurate, nor did I think something like that.


I was refering to where you said 50-100% higher exposure at 500°F compared to smoke. I didnt come to that conclusion looking at your blog and references, so I asked.

My stance would be that this might be not as problematic as it seems/ I wondered if the found values were harmful. Every substance is toxic with the right dose.

E.g. maybe my little test is fail, Idk, if I assume my device is "good enough":
If I set my non DNA device with arctic fox in TC mode to limit at 20W, then I set TC to 260°C.
At best with that wattage limit I reach 197°C while pulling hard. So the wattage is limiting the temperature.

20W is what I would use in wattage mode with my FEVs. If my little test is good enough Id think I wasnt ever at risk for meaningfull exposure in vw mode without ever thinking about it.

My apologies, you never said (nor even hinted) my work was in accurate. I confused you with post #5151 in my mind, and that wasnt you. I do apologize.

I totally agree with comparison to a TC mod approach, in fact it is a good approach. Assuming you keep all of the other variables the same, especially the coil and wicking.

As to what level of aldehydes are safe, I have no clue. The best approximation I know of to use is the OSHA standards. And deciphering them can be a career in itself.

My position is, if the risk is easily avoidable, and you can still get a satisfying vape, why take the risk. Everyone must decide their own tolerance for risk, and it likely changes over time. The first few years I vaped I could have cared less what the risks were, I felt better, and knew the net harm was less, that was good enough. Hell, I started with cartos and then "advanced" to those CE4s, the only reason I moved away from CE4s was looking for more satisfaction, it had nothing to do with safety. Now that the science of vaping is advancing, and the technology is improving, further risk reduction without sacrificing satisfaction does make sense to me though.

 

[GeorgeS]

Gosh I finally made it to the end of the thread!

Kudos to Mike for doing all the testing and getting repeatable results, I knew it was rather challenging to do so.

And YES, I do own three different examples of TC Squonkers! LOL

<ducking>

 

[Impulso]

@mikepetro - Thank you for all the information in here. I hated TC and have been using it for the past few days after reading through all this information. I am sure I was inhaling more than traditional cigarettes for the past few years as I chain vape and my KFL+ would get hot - that unfortunately was the way I liked it, but am changing my ways.

Do you know whether there is a difference in the way the different coil chemistries influence these toxins being generated? For E.G. I understand that you say that its all about temperatures. However, does any of that get influenced by the coil type(SS, Ni etc). Does one of them potentially cause a reaction faster or are they all inert at those temperatures(<450/470) and do not influence anything at all?

Also do you have graphs showing finer axes(in maybe 5 degrees?) instead of being separated by 20 deg farenheit/celcius?

 

[AkiraFZ]

New Blog:

The basics of getting the most accuracy out of your TC Mod

Thank you Mike as always. This Arctic Fox software is fantastic! Cycling between profiles is easier for me than non-color DNA mod when I am building wire.

 

[mikepetro]

@mikepetro - Thank you for all the information in here. I hated TC and have been using it for the past few days after reading through all this information. I am sure I was inhaling more than traditional cigarettes for the past few years as I chain vape and my KFL+ would get hot - that unfortunately was the way I liked it, but am changing my ways.

Do you know whether there is a difference in the way the different coil chemistries influence these toxins being generated? For E.G. I understand that you say that its all about temperatures. However, does any of that get influenced by the coil type(SS, Ni etc). Does one of them potentially cause a reaction faster or are they all inert at those temperatures(<450/470) and do not influence anything at all?

Barring specific allergies, nickel being a common one, everything I have read from the metallurgists says that at the temps we vape at, the common wires we use should be fairly inert. I do know that some of these metals DO give very hazardous oxides up around 1000F+, TI being a good example, so you wouldnt want to dry burn it to clean the coils. There is lots of info out there on different alloys, and their decomposition temps. I suggest you just look up the type of wire you are considering. Now, that being said, I dont think anyone has tested for specific interactions between ejuice and various coil materials.

Also do you have graphs showing finer axes(in maybe 5 degrees?) instead of being separated by 20 deg farenheit/celcius?

No, I have no intentions at this moment to get that granular. Each temperature point tested represents 15 tests (5 of each juice), thats at least 8 hours test time per temp point. If I did every 5 degrees between 450-500 that would be another 120 tests, or about 60 hours work. I am not volunteering for that right now. I dont have a budget or a staff, and I am not in business related to vaping.

 

[mikepetro]

Gosh I finally made it to the end of the thread!

Kudos to Mike for doing all the testing and getting repeatable results, I knew it was rather challenging to do so.

And YES, I do own three different examples of TC Squonkers! LOL

<ducking>

No need to duck.....
Squonk em if you got em.......

At least their TC!

 

[Impulso]

Thanks for the detailed reply. In switching, and messing with escribe, I was very surprised to find the difference between using SS316L 28 gauge vs 26 gauge. I am hitting barely 350 Fahrenheit for a satisfying vape for 26 gauge but was constantly hitting a 450 fahrenheit temp with the smaller gauge. I lowered the preheat temp and now it vapes like a dream.

I looked up the profiles to make sure I am using the correct TCR ranges and it seems to be correct. Glad I am well below the range!

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks for the detailed reply. In switching, and messing with escribe, I was very surprised to find the difference between using SS316L 28 gauge vs 26 gauge. I am hitting barely 350 Fahrenheit for a satisfying vape for 26 gauge but was constantly hitting a 450 fahrenheit temp with the smaller gauge. I lowered the preheat temp and now it vapes like a dream.

I looked up the profiles to make sure I am using the correct TCR ranges and it seems to be correct. Glad I am well below the range!

Thinner wires burn hotter, so that fits. I usually do 26g or 24g.

The trick is that you got a satisfying hit at a lower temp, thats the whole goal, and it is indeed easily achievable.

Kudos for doing the experimentation!

 

[mikepetro]

 

[Impulso]

@mikepetro - I had another question regarding VG/PG and their levels at which they start releasing harmful chemicals. The graphs on the first page show VG starting at earlier temperatures(410F) and PG starting at 480F. However your figures show VG starting later, and the temperature at which harmful chemicals are released is lower as PG is added.

Can you help me understand what might be happening? Does the mix of PG/VG make it worse ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Katya]

@mikepetro - I had another question regarding VG/PG and their levels at which they start releasing harmful chemicals. The graphs on the first page show VG starting at earlier temperatures(410F) and PG starting at 480F. However your figures show VG starting later, and the temperature at which harmful chemicals are released is lower as PG is added.

Can you help me understand what might be happening? Does the mix of PG/VG make it worse ?

Not Mike , but he was surprised also. We talked about it briefly, earlier in thread:

Yes, I have been contemplating that all day. VG acted as expected, but the 50/50 mixture did not.
My next step is to measure some 100% PG juice, to see if I see any clues there. Not gonna happen today though.

 

[Katya]

Damn them. I just recently made my first peppermint flavored juice and I really like it. I'm not going to bin the mint just because of those guys.

Looking back I started using cigalikes around 6 or 7 years ago, and better gear 4 years ago. I don't recall reading any bad publicity about vaping, or having to listen to people telling me how awful it was. That seems to have been a fairly recent development. Maybe around the time vaping started to pose a threat to BP profits and gov revenue streams.

Say what??? Vaping has been under assault since the very beginning. FDA started seizing shipments of e-cigs from China in 2009. Then came lawsuits, Judge Leon's 2010 ruling in Sottero v FDA, then the deeming discussions and regulations, more fights, letters to lawmakers, CASAA's calls to action, SFATA, AEMSA, more congressional rulings and wranglings, bills and endless hearings, Zeller, Glantz, Boxer, Schumer et al. crying that we must save the children, MSM and their relentless fear mongering, states banning, regulating and taxing whatever they could, Still Blowing Smoke...

 

[Impulso]

Not Mike , but he was surprised also. We talked about it briefly, earlier in thread:

Thanks for the reply. So it wasn’t just me wondering why it was reversed. Hopefully the PG mix will be tested at some point. I can always switch to more of a VG juice if needed and the experiments show that VG is safer than PG. my ADV is 70/30 pg/VG so especially interested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HansWu]

FDA, then the deeming discussions and regulations, more fights, letters to lawmakers, CASAA's calls to action, SFATA, AEMSA, more congressional rulings and wranglings, bills and endless hearings, Zeller, Glantz, Boxer, Schumer et al. crying that we must save the children, MSM and their relentless fear mongering, states banning, regulating and taxing whatever they could, Still Blowing Smoke...

cool, just like in germany...ban vaping, save big pharma nicotine replacement therapy and big tobacco...
After attempts to ban vaping, trying to get vapestuff beeing sold exclusively in pharmacies and OMG save the children: Now we have new EU Law: nicotine liquid is sold in max 10ml bottles and 20mg nic/ml, vaporizers must have a tank of max 2ml. WTH. Liquid sellers must get certification for each liquid: e.g. if you sell 3mg 6mg 12...etc of just one flavor u must get certification for each nic content, just at cheap 500€. With beeing sold at just 10ml, liquid prices went up drastically.

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks for the reply. So it wasn’t just me wondering why it was reversed. Hopefully the PG mix will be tested at some point. I can always switch to more of a VG juice if needed and the experiments show that VG is safer than PG. my ADV is 70/30 pg/VG so especially interested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldnt change your VG ratio just based on formaldehyde results alone.

I sent my work to several in the Industry, Dr F, John Bellinger, Dr Kurt, etc. Here is some of the feedback I got.

I would be a little hesitant to recommend going to a higher VG ratio e-liquid to run at higher temperatures based just on this data. vg preferentially degrades into acrolein, which is more problematic than formaldehyde. I think at the end of the day the goal is to minimize total harm.

Here he is saying that my formaldehyde reading are actually probably a little lower than reality. My device only tested for gas, but when you vape you also get some tiny droplets of liquid juice, and those droplets also contain formaldehyde, which my device couldnt measure.

I worry about quantification with the setup you have - that's measuring gas phase only and we have an aerosol that will also have dissolved formaldehyde in the droplets, so you're probably measuring low. An impinger trap would be the typical way to do it, but that requires you to sample liquid phase. ........ I also agree 100% that at the lower temperatures that generate formaldehyde people can't taste what they're doing.

That was encouraging.

Qualitatively I would say you are bang on, and 450 is about where we see the break point. 480 is iffy, above 500 is definitely problematic. ............ But for your limitations and budget, I think you're bang on for where the temperature gets interesting, and I 100% agree people can't taste it.

And I have obtained the explanation for the value differences between my two graphs, I will explain later when I have more time, Right now I have to go to my paying job.....