New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Another one of those moments!On another note... I have been vaping 10% distilled h20 thanks to these results when I'm not using TC.... I thought I would hate it, I actually LIKE it, a LOT. Much smoother/airier vape for someone who can't use PG, and who'd a thunk it, but it seems (to me) that it's actually more flavorful, I'm not sure if that's because it's still wicking better, or what.
(This is one of MikeP's recommendations for folks who can only vape VG, due to it's low boiling or degradation or whatever point you want to call it). My tanks aren't heating up even slightly, either, even if I chain vape (I have been testing this OUT
I have discovered that I don't much care to vape vodka/everclear/ETOH in general, really, not even a miniscule amount (like a drop or two). But, a drop or two of really cheap cooking burgundy was... sort of interesting. I got rid of it the minute it started cooking on my coil, but regardless, (this is my apricot-brandy flavoring) the result TASTED fantastic, but smelled just like curry. I really had to change my coil.
I think I will be staying away from the alcoHols, even in my vape.
Seriously though, useful information that is accurate, is usually borne out in real world results. You don't have to vape TC to get some good things out of this information....
Anna
Yep, MikeP your thread may terrify new vapers (I sort of think it should be advanced reading-- like, don't read it for two months or something (I just ran into one of those new vapers on another thread, who was clearly freaked (though it may have been general information, not your study specifically) and kept demanding to know the temp in their Aspire Breeze, and they are really impossible to talk down.
BUT, the information is so helpful and useful, once you've started vaping stably, and I'm so glad it's here....
Anna
BUT, the information is so helpful and useful, once you've started vaping stably, and I'm so glad it's here....
Anna
Like it or not, we do not exist behind any walls, or insulated from the world in any way, shape, or form. Everything we post is accessible via the public domain, for anyone and everyone to search, see, and draw whatever conclusions they may.
Some will take the time to research, and understand, but others will not. These truths are evident.
Risking redundancy here >
23 Sources of Formaldehyde In Your Home
Quoting @Katdarling, who clearly said it best:
"What's in your sheets, kids?"
There will always be those who, by choice, will remain ignorant.
Likewise there will be those who choose to educate themselves about a topic and are therefor less ignorant about it.
Making truthful and unbiased information available will not, and should not, cease just because some choose to skim the headlines and draw ignorant opinions from it.
"Ignorant" as used here is defined as:
unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge
Likewise there will be those who choose to educate themselves about a topic and are therefor less ignorant about it.
Making truthful and unbiased information available will not, and should not, cease just because some choose to skim the headlines and draw ignorant opinions from it.
"Ignorant" as used here is defined as:
unaware because of a lack of relevant information or knowledge
Sigh. I know. MikeP's thread is actually a lot more balanced and nuanced than those dry hit studies.... For all I know, that's what that poster was reading. I will say, when I read this thread, I didn't freak out in the sense of "I will stop vaping" but rather, "I need to get to TC ASAP!!!" So I bought a few RTAs that were DL and not at all suited to my vape, for example, but it was a minor annoyance and I got to PIF that stuff, so it all worked out.
But, there's nothing that beats real world experience. ONCE I got a stable vape going and started noticing my health gains, my thoughts became "How can I do this more safely in a measured, stepwise progression," and I calmed down.
And here I am, still alive, after not using TC for several months.... Though I'm happy to be able to-- now.
I do sometimes think that vapers in the throes of quitting will look for negative studies and freak out and return to smoking, even with a great deal of reassurance. I guess that's on them, not on anyone else.
So, motivation plays a role, I guess, and when someone stubbornly asks things over and over I usually see a dim future for vaping for them, as they're looking for the "perfect" answer which doesn't exist, then using it as a reason to return to "known" risks. You can point out that vapers were vaping for a Long Time without TC and it still doesn't matter....
Anna
But, there's nothing that beats real world experience. ONCE I got a stable vape going and started noticing my health gains, my thoughts became "How can I do this more safely in a measured, stepwise progression," and I calmed down.
And here I am, still alive, after not using TC for several months.... Though I'm happy to be able to-- now.
I do sometimes think that vapers in the throes of quitting will look for negative studies and freak out and return to smoking, even with a great deal of reassurance. I guess that's on them, not on anyone else.
So, motivation plays a role, I guess, and when someone stubbornly asks things over and over I usually see a dim future for vaping for them, as they're looking for the "perfect" answer which doesn't exist, then using it as a reason to return to "known" risks. You can point out that vapers were vaping for a Long Time without TC and it still doesn't matter....
Anna
Anna, I very strongly disagree with your suggestion that this thread should be "advanced reading," whatever it means. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to get information, as much information I could, about vaping.
For starters, we don't know why this new member was freaked--there's so much misinformation in the MSM that a lot of people are scared, suspicious or totally brainwashed before they even find this forum (think antifreeze). Here at least they can the facts and an honest discussion. And yes, we've always had a few members who were dead against posting anything other than the "good news" about ecigs. They argued that anyone who raised questions or concerns was "fear mongering," "giving ammunition to the ANTZ," or was "discouraging new vapers." I want the facts--the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'll draw my own conclusions.
I think for information like this its always important to give context.
E.g. that the values you found were considered minimal exposure in another study (by faralinos)
In the german E cig forum there is a toxicology professor (who spoke also in the german parliament regarding ecigs and the BS science that is used to suppress them, exposed there that the regulators/ german institute for risk assessment didnt really know what they are talking about) and he said those values are nothing to worry about.
I have an idea for another test:
what happens over time, when the wick is used for longer and brownish stuff accumulates in the wick and around the coil.
What do you think?
E.g. that the values you found were considered minimal exposure in another study (by faralinos)
In the german E cig forum there is a toxicology professor (who spoke also in the german parliament regarding ecigs and the BS science that is used to suppress them, exposed there that the regulators/ german institute for risk assessment didnt really know what they are talking about) and he said those values are nothing to worry about.
I have an idea for another test:
what happens over time, when the wick is used for longer and brownish stuff accumulates in the wick and around the coil.
What do you think?
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I did give context, about a hundred time so far. and in the study that I myself did i gave context .
And I respectfully disagree with your German toxicology professor, if someone is vaping at 500F+, and getting 50% - 100% more formaldehyde than in a cigarette, then it is something to be concerned about. Especially when the fix is as easy as simply lowering your temp a little bit, or selecting more appropriate hardware.
When I see alehydes on a certain very common style of atty for newbies, these are some of the most common attys in starter kits, exceeds both smoking and OSHA workday limits, then yes I think it is something to be concerned about. And this data came from a pro-vape PHD at Penn State.
And CE4s, while not popular among experienced vapors, are extremely common in mass market outlets. Heck you even see these in blister packs at the local corner gas station.
As for the gunked coil test, I am interested in doing such a test. I am just struggling with how to do the controls for it. I think you would have to test it everday over the coils lifetime, until it got good and gunked, to see meaningful data.
He didnt say never to be worried, but in context with Farsas study, that they only found meaningfull values when they had humans vape and also report a bad taste/dry hit. As long as the testsubjects reported everything is fine, they found "minimal" values.
Can you give me the links to that CE4 OSHA study?
Did they use humans too or vape bots?
In a different study they found undectable amounts of form. when the device was used with 3,3V and tons of formaldehyde when they used 5V and burned the liquid and wick...but without a human control/test- group, so in the german press they wrote about very toxic ecigs...
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069
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Well, I think that's a pretty fair point. I will then say that I wish I hadn't gotten so freaked out in the beginning, although it did end up working well for me. I agree that the poster may have gotten the scaremongering information elsewhere, without context, I made that point already in one of my posts, I think.
I will say I'm glad the deeming thread was there, even though it too was a bit scary.... I will say in general, knowledge on this board pushed me more quickly up the vaping ladder and I'm certainly not sure that is a bad thing, I love DIY for example....
As I also stated, I guess that if a poster gets freaked out and chooses to return to smoking and will not listen to reason that is on them.
Anna
Damn, I need more coffee this morning before tackling these guys math. Their test method looks OK, if a little convoluted, on particle measurement, but I sure wish they said more about what they were testing rather than how they were testing it. All they gave is a generic"
"A new (unused) rechargeable e-cig filled with a mint-flavoured liquid with two levels of nicotine (0 mg ml−1, and 12 mg ml−1) was used."
As we now know, the hardware and temperature of vapor production is sorta important to what is actually being produced. While they are measuring particle production and not thermal degradation VOC production, I'd still like to know just what they did to get the e cig vapor beyond that generic description. And mint, why mint??
Eskie, I gotta say as a fellow a.m. coffee drinker, I'm enjoying you expressing your bewilderment. 
.
A) I have often stared at past posts I've made without coffee in total bewilderment
B) You usually aren't, so it's kind of fun!
C) I'm guessing I may stare back on this post in bewilderment, too.
D) Mint doesn't make sense to me either.... oh, I could go into a conspiracy theory about it, but I'm not gonna bother at this point.
Good morning, all
Anna
. A) I have often stared at past posts I've made without coffee in total bewilderment
B) You usually aren't, so it's kind of fun!
C) I'm guessing I may stare back on this post in bewilderment, too.
D) Mint doesn't make sense to me either.... oh, I could go into a conspiracy theory about it, but I'm not gonna bother at this point.
Good morning, all
Anna
What is the definition of "meaningful values"?
BTW, Volts or Watts in a study mean nothing!! IMHO science has been testing the WRONG variable all along, which is part of the reason that the results of so many studies are so different. Formaldehyde is a byproduct of thermal degradation. Temperature and juice ingredients are the only things that matter. And to your earlier point, "possibly" the carbon buildup of a gunked coil. Volts or Watts mean little as the temperature generated by "X" volts or "Y" Watts will differ from device to device based on the 18 different VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables.
OSHA defines a short-term exposure limit (STEL) of 2 ppm which is the maximum exposure allowed during a 15-minute period. I measured 1.45 PPM in a single puff of 50/50 at 500f. Now envision a couple of chain hits at that level, and chain hits on a VW device could easily exceed 2ppm in a single puff towards the end of the chain series. I have proven that chain hits on a VV\VW device progressively get hotter with each hit.
IMHO, if you can simply lower the temp and avoid the risk totally, why not?
Dr Kurts study is here, and he did use a BOT: Dr Kurts study - He is a vaper and understands the dry hit phenomena. He acknowledges this in the slide from my last post
Dr Kurt also said "Another interesting and important consideration for future studies would be direct measurement of the temperature of the coil during activation to better understand what coil temperatures lead to decomposition, but this was technologically beyond the scope of this study."
Which is exactly what I did in my study!
My Testing:
This was in a real atty under real conditions with a fresh coil, and I myself vaped a hit under every single test condition documented. As noted in my study I never tasted anything burnt until I reached 505f and the wick was totally saturated, so it was not a dry hit, and even then it was only a slight burnt note which I might not have even tasted if the ejuice had been flavored. Yet I start getting small but measurable levels of formaldehyde at 460f, cigarette level emissions starting at around 500F.
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Where did I get it wrong:
you found in worst conditions 100% VG 1,29 ug/per puff at 500°F. However more typical is traditional base with 10% water, so 0,271 ug/puff should be expected typically.
In your blog you reference a study which reviewed other studies and found 7.4 ug/puff on avg for tobacco smoke mainstream puffs.
This is about 5,7 times more for smoke compared to worst case 500°F 100% VG.
For best case with 10% water, which should be pretty common, its 27 times more for smoke compared to 500°F for vaping.
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gunked coils test. good idea. i expect some photos would accompany the readings?
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