New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[ScottP]

To what Quantitative Value would you consider TC to be "accurate" ?

+/- 10F ?
+/- 5F ?
+/- 1F ?
+/- .01F ?

Something else perhaps?

Required accuracy is always dependent on what you are trying to measure, the over all quantity you are trying to measure, and the amount of acceptable inaccuracy. What does that mean? Let me give you some examples.

If you are measuring 430 miles, for the sake of putting up a highway mileage to X town sign, and are off by 1 mile, no one is going to notice or even care. Large quantity, no real requirement to be super accurate, means how much you can be off and still be "accurate" is greater.

If you are measuring an 8ft 2x4 board to use as a stud in a wall, and you are off by 1 foot, then that is going to be obvious when it won't fit and yes it will be a problem. Smaller total quantity, when exact measurement is required, then how much you can be off and still be considered "accurate" is much lower.

Translating this into temps, if you want to know how cold/warm it is in your house, then you want that measurement to be accurate to within a degree or two tops. Your oven on the other hand, which you are going to be heating between 350F and 450F (similar temps to coils), can easily be off by 10 degrees. In fact even if it is fairly accurate the thermostat in it allows for much more than 10 degree temp swings between it cutting on and off to maintain temp. I have a grill thermometer in my oven. If I set it to 400F when the gas turns off indicating it is 400F I can open the oven and see it is really about 410-415F. Then when it cuts back on I can look and see it is usually down around 375F-380F. That sounds like a pretty big swing, but at these temps it really isn't. So if Evolv boards are accurate to within 10F, then they are more accurate than your oven at similar temps.

Also if a measurement has a predictable accuracy level (even +/- 10F) then you can account for that. If you want to make sure you never go above say 470F and you know you could be off by as much as 10F then just never set the device above 460F and you are golden. Personally I vape at 435F, so at worst I am never over 445F which keeps me in the safe zone for sure.

Finally, if you look at the Evolv inaccuracy as a % of the amount being measured, being off 10F at 450F measured is an accuracy to +/- 2.2% which is fairly accurate.

I hope this helps.

 

[ScottP]

@mikepetro You didn't comment on my hypothesis about water helping to prevent oxidation in eliquid. I am curious what you think and if you will be willing to test that?

 

[zoiDman]

...

I hope this helps.

Not trying to sound Snarky. But it Doesn't Help at all.

Because I was Curious what 52anddone considers(ed) "accurate".

 

[ScottP]

Not trying to sound Snarky. But it Doesn't Help at all.

Because I was Curious what 52anddone considers(ed) "accurate".

AHHH!

 

[mikepetro]

@mikepetro You didn't comment on my hypothesis about water helping to prevent oxidation in eliquid. I am curious what you think and if you will be willing to test that?

Will reply when I get home, out of town this weekend.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[mikepetro]

Finally, if you look at the Evolv inaccuracy as a % of the amount being measured, being off 10F at 450F measured is an accuracy to +/- 2.2% which is fairly accurate.

In the professional Instrumentation world, accuracy is often expressed as a "% of Full Scale". So if a device is is rated for 0-1000 degrees, then a 2% accuracy would be 0.2 degrees. So really, as compared to professional instrumentation +/- 10 degrees is not all that great.

But...... when you considered the size, and pricepoint, it is not bad at all. To get single or double decimal accuracy in a mod would be costly and bulky.

Here are actual measurements I got from a properly setup DNA200. YMMV depending on your own unique setup.

• DNA set at 300, Thermocouple measured 307
• DNA set at 350, Thermocouple measured 349
• DNA set at 400, Thermocouple measured 393
• DNA set at 450, Thermocouple measured 442
• DNA set at 500, Thermocouple measured 485
• DNA set at 550, Thermocouple insulation melted before reading could be obtained

How to measure the temperature on your own atty.

The basics of getting the most accuracy out of your TC Mod

 

[mikepetro]

So I was reading up on PEG, it's decomposition/oxidation properties under heat as well as more theory on the oxidation of PG and VG into aldehydes. It seems that at least with PEG the presence of water actually helps prevent degradation and oxidation. Then I remembered Mike's chart (quoted below) and how I had wondered why there was such a large discrepancy between 100%VG and 90%VG/10%DW at the 500F data point. I think that water may potentially act to help prevent oxidation of all 3 of these molecules.

To that end I propose that Mike repeat this test with an additional liquid composition: 45PG/45VG/10DW. The hypothesis is that we should see a similarly low reading at the 500F mark as we do for the 90/10 composition. If this holds true we may have a way to further limit exposure even at higher temps.

EDIT: If time permits, it might also be interesting to see the other end of the spectrum using 100%PG, and 90PG/10DW just to isolate how water inhibits oxidation of pure PG. If my hypotheses holds true I can see myself using something along the lines of 55PG/35VG/10DW. It might be a bit thin and require some tweaking, but we can cross that bridge once we know if the water really helps or not.

I too remember reading something about the thermal degradation process and how moisture affects it. To be honest, it was over my head. I am not a chemist, just an Instrumentation Engineer. So I really have no opinion on your theory other than it is a valid question.

As for testing it, I am game, but it wont happen any time soon due to time constraints. To do a test regiment on this requires a minimum of 30 tests, 5 at each temp to ensure a reasonable standard deviation. Each individual sample takes 20-60 minutes, depending on how fast the meter responds and then resets after the test. So we are talking 2 full days for each different ratio of ejuice. I am game, but I need a bunch of time when I dont have other priorities fighting for it.

Here is a sample of my notes during just one round of testing. I actually run each regiment at 20 degree increments from 400 - 500 degrees.

 

[ScottP]

I too remember reading something about the thermal degradation process and how moisture affects it. To be honest, it was over my head. I am not a chemist, just an Instrumentation Engineer. So I really have no opinion on your theory other than it is a valid question.

As for testing it, I am game, but it wont happen any time soon due to time constraints. To do a test regiment on this requires a minimum of 30 tests, 5 at each temp to ensure a reasonable standard deviation. Each individual sample takes 20-60 minutes, depending on how fast the meter responds and then resets after the test. So we are talking 2 full days for each different ratio of ejuice. I am game, but I need a bunch of time when I dont have other priorities fighting for it.

Here is a sample of my notes during just one round of testing. I actually run each regiment at 20 degree increments from 400 - 500 degrees.
View attachment 714199

Trust me I 100% understand real life and time constraints. I do look forward to the results when you do get the time. I think the results could be very interesting.

One point to potentially save a few hours, since none of the existing samples are above baseline until 440F, I would suggest that as the starting point instead of 400F. This would cut out 10 tests and save 1/3 of the time per sample liquid. Of course this is 100% your discretion, just thought I would mention it.

I wish I had access to the equipment to help with these tests so I cold help.

 

[Semiretired]

Good evolution with this thread. I have really enjoyed following it.

I'm a vaper that started vaping to get off the stinkies and that is what I have used it for. While I am slightly averse to what side effects vaping may cause and will be realized some day in the future. I just try to reduce what I can control in my vaping.

I use minimal flavoring, minimal temp and minimal cloud creation. Over time I have adjusted about ever aspect of my vaping until I have found what is enough to satisfy me and provide minimal exposure to the outliers that may be present.

The two areas I have focused on the most has been the flavoring and volume of ejuice being consumed. For me these are the biggest outliers. I am not 100% confident, but I feel 98% confident that I avoid the metal heating aspect of vaping, but vaping with flavorings at a high level or vaping through large volumes of ejuice are the two areas I focus on the most and are also the two areas that are easily controlled. I try to keep flavoring under 2% and I try to vape less than 4ml a day.

 

[mikepetro]

Good evolution with this thread. I have really enjoyed following it.

I'm a vaper that started vaping to get off the stinkies and that is what I have used it for. While I am slightly averse to what side effects vaping may cause and will be realized some day in the future. I just try to reduce what I can control in my vaping.

I use minimal flavoring, minimal temp and minimal cloud creation. Over time I have adjusted about ever aspect of my vaping until I have found what is enough to satisfy me and provide minimal exposure to the outliers that may be present.

The two areas I have focused on the most has been the flavoring and volume of ejuice being consumed. For me these are the biggest outliers. I am not 100% confident, but I feel 98% confident that I avoid the metal heating aspect of vaping, but vaping with flavorings at a high level or vaping through large volumes of ejuice are the two areas I focus on the most and are also the two areas that are easily controlled. I try to keep flavoring under 2% and I try to vape less than 4ml a day.

I would say about 75% of the time I vape unflavored. Largely because we really dont know whats in all of these flavorings, and they damn sure havent been studied very much in regard to inhalation. Plus, I actually like unflavored.

I vape less than 5ml a day. I am with you in that "if" there are any nasties in the PG/VG then obviously the more of you consume the more nasties you will get. To that end I still vape 36mg, so that I can get the most bang for the buck per hit. Helps keep the ml down.

But at the end of the day is all about keeping the nico-demon fed, at least for me. So it has to be satisfying. I have found that "satisfying" can be a moving target, and notions I held in the past dont necessarily hold true today.

 

[DPLongo22]

notions I held in the past dont necessarily hold true today.

I feel SO (freakin') fortunate...

Every change I've made has been for fun and enjoyment, and the same things I began with (now so many moons ago) are still in my "in rotation" stand.

I do so enjoy this thing - this "vape" thing. Yes, I do.

 

[Semiretired]

I would say about 75% of the time I vape unflavored. Largely because we really dont know whats in all of these flavorings, and they damn sure havent been studied very much in regard to inhalation. Plus, I actually like unflavored.

I tried unflavored - my family (primarily my daughter) said it smelled like my old socks - so I use just a hint of flavoring for flavor and odor for the folks around me... For me alone - unflavored was just fine...

I vape less than 5ml a day. I am with you in that "if" there are any nasties in the PG/VG then obviously the more of you consume the more nasties you will get. To that end I still vape 36mg, so that I can get the most bang for the buck per hit. Helps keep the ml down.

I upped my nic back to around 15 - 18mg after I discovered I was vaping more. I really really want to keep the volume down. PG/VG are dehydrants of a sorts that our body clears supposedly naturally, but long term effects combined with a steady inhalation with them is unknown and the larger the volume the greater the risk has to be in the grand scheme of things...

 

[Rossum]

I tried unflavored - my family (primarily my daughter) said it smelled like my old socks

I find that surprising. My wife (a never smoker) used to complain when I smoked or vaped flavored while she was eating. With unflavored, not a word.

 

[newyork13]

I would say about 75% of the time I vape unflavored. Largely because we really dont know whats in all of these flavorings, and they damn sure havent been studied very much in regard to inhalation. Plus, I actually like unflavored.

I vape less than 5ml a day. I am with you in that "if" there are any nasties in the PG/VG then obviously the more of you consume the more nasties you will get. To that end I still vape 36mg, so that I can get the most bang for the buck per hit. Helps keep the ml down.

But at the end of the day is all about keeping the nico-demon fed, at least for me. So it has to be satisfying. I have found that "satisfying" can be a moving target, and notions I held in the past dont necessarily hold true today.

Hi Mike: just curious what brand unflavored you use?
I also vape it, and haven't been enjoying it as much, and wonder if my last batch [Wizard 50/50] is just inferior.

 

[lil_buddy]

I find that surprising. My wife (a never smoker) used to complain when I smoked or vaped flavored while she was eating. With unflavored, not a word.

If I happen to catch a whiff of the unflavored when I'm vaping it, it smells kinda weird. My one friend who vapes with me says it reminds him of smoking m_epsilon_th

 

[mikepetro]

Hi Mike: just curious what brand unflavored you use?
I also vape it, and haven't been enjoying it as much, and wonder if my last batch [Wizard 50/50] is just inferior.

I mix my own so its not really a brand. The flavor (and probably scent) of unflavored is then a function of the nic I am using. Lately I have been using e-cig.com nic.

 

[Winblows]

I'm relaxed, just trying to understand it all.

#MeToo

 

[mikepetro]

Damn the irony......

Risks of Lung Screening Seen Outweighing Benefits in Many with Smoking History

 

[stols001]

Whelp, that makes me feel better about not getting my repeat x-ray yet like my doc wants. I mean, I'm going to do it.... I just feel perfectly fine. I also feel like I've been saying that for a while, but IDK. I should go because I'm betting you don't "feel" cancer. I have "scarring" in one lobe of my lung and it's small. I think it's just scarring but my doc wants me to get an x-ray (at the same place on the same machine) and it just sounds exhausting to set up.

I should really, probably do it regardless, if only for my doc's peace of mind, I just can't cope with another "crisis" quite yet.

Anna

 

[Eskie]

Eh, careful interpreting that short summary blurb. For it to be useful you need to go back and figure out who is a low vs. high risk individual and then the methodology of screening used. Those at high risk (>30 pack/yr smoking history, family history of lung cancer, and whatnot) do benefit from screening in identifying early stage lung cancer when long term survival / "cure" is still possible. It is still not as effective as other types of cancer screening tests for other parts of the body, but that means we need even better testing methods, not stop testing because it's not as statistically useful as say colonoscpy for colon cancer.

However offering tests to low risk people clearly doesn't make sense. Unfortunately most of us around here are not low risk people as many exceed the 30 pack/yr cutoff typically used to justify screening.