New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[KenD]

With tc you can stay under 400F but it doesn't say a thing, because it does not actually measure the temperature of the coil. My guess is even @ 200F the coil can be over the 400F or more when using tc.
Best thing is to have a cool vape and do short puffs with a pauze.
Hope the future will bring us real temperature sensors soon!

Sure it measures the temperature of the coil. The mod reads the increase of resistance and translates that to increase in temperature from the known tcr of the wire material, kinda like a mercury thermometer measures the temperature by how much the mercury expands.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[Bonskibon]

I'm getting an istick 60w and CF mod in the mail today and for the first time I'm not very excited. This thread has my head going in circles.

 

[mikepetro]

I did a similar test last night.. on a single coil rda, at 30 watts 3 large blasts back to back .59 ohms.. SS316L never hit 420 degrees... what does that mean??? Safe in wattage mode??
Very Confusing
I usually use wattage mode / kanthal.....FYI

Its means that atty /coil is probably safe at 30W if you dont let it go dry.

 

[Bonskibon]

I'm getting an iStick 60w and CF mod in the mail today and for the first time I'm not very excited. This thread has my head going in circles.

Oh, oh, forgot to mention... At least I'll be getting a Melo 2 in the kit that comes with nickel and titanium coils so with my asthma I'll now be able to take huge, long DL inhales, but hey, at least I'll be using it in TC mode.

 

[mikepetro]

This has been an interesting thread, but I think that you can vape in safe parameters even in wattage mode. I guess what I'm getting from that experiment that you and I did was , good wicking provides juice to the coil keeping the temp low enough to be safe even in wattage mode..
When I went up 5 more watts (35w)with back to back hits it finally started to kick in. Now I don't vape like that (crazy chain vaping) and I don't think most people do but I was trying to prove a point through extreme conditions.
Its when your wick can't keep up due to higher watts the coil and lack of juice (causing the little but remaining juice) to get too hot creating those dangerous conditions. Seems like a saturated wick won't get as hot.
That's kinda what I'm getting out of it. Totally could be wrong just a theory....
Yes I do get why TC can help for many vapers and can be a safer route... I just think that those harmful conditions are not in every device or build that is in wattage mode.

They are not in every device at every wattage! Unsafe levels are probably not in most current generation devices. The ones that are at most risk are the ones pushing the envelope, and lets face it, a lot of the folks here on this forum fit that category.

Some folks here are blowing this out of proportion. It wasnt proposed that unsafe levels were in every device. It was presented that the unsafe levels were an outlying condition probably by people pushing their device.

"Are ecigs safe than cigarettes? For most of the people - YES, but then you have this one guy who ........"

Temperature matters. LOL, whether you measure it or not, temp matters.

Start at 6:25

 

[Bonskibon]

They are not in every device at every wattage! Unsafe levels are probably not in most current generation devices. The ones that are at most risk are the ones pushing the envelope, and lets face it, a lot of the folks here on this forum fit that category.

Some folks here are blowing this out of proportion. It wasnt proposed that unsafe levels were in every device. It was presented that the unsafe levels were an outlying condition probably by people pushing their device.

"Are ecigs safe than cigarettes? For most of the people - YES, but then you have this one guy who ........"

Temperature matters. LOL, whether you measure it or not, temp matters.

Start at 6:25

I agree that temperature matters and believe most folks here agree as well, however, that's not how this thread is going. It went from that to TC ONLY MODS. I vape at 1.5 in my Toptank mini at 12w and have NEVER gotten a dry hit.

 

[tiburonfirst]

Let me see.....

Long-term vaping 'far safer than smoking' says 'landmark' study - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sand...h/sd-me-vaping-safety-20170206-story,amp.html

Kinda opposite ya know

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

where is the conflict? nowhere does that study claim that vaping is 100% safe! imo, vaping will always be found safer than smoking; there is way too much anecdotal evidence to ever dispute that claim!
but we're at the point now where quantifying 'safer' comes into play. i always knew that some risk factors would be found and all that evolv is saying is that the evidence is starting to show high temps is making vaping less safe than what it could be.
so, what's a vaper to do? it's really very simple - you take the info, evaluate it and make up your mind how much it will affect your vaping style.
for some people, like willy, who need to minimize the risks as much as possible that info is enough to dial down the temps to make sure he is staying in what appears to be the safe zone atm!
i sure hope that nobody here is so blind as to be convinced no other risk factors will be associated with vaping sooner or later!!!!!

 

[Bonskibon]

It's true that VW devices or even VV devices don't have a temperature regulation on them, but why the blanket statement that they are no longer SAFE to use anymore?

 

[mikepetro]

I agree that temperature matters and believe most folks here agree as well, however, that's not how this thread is going. I went from that to TC ONLY MODS. I vape at 1.5 in my Toptank mini at 12w and have NEVER gotten a dry hit.

LOL, this thread has gone all over of the place. Some folks here would argue that the moon is purple.

• Temp matters, so how do you know if vape at safe temps?
• If you dont use a TC device then you really dont know.
• You can do things like use a TC mod as a reference device for a given coil, and that would give you an idea of your max safe wattage.
• If you want to be "sure" then use a TC mod.

 

[mikepetro]

It's true that VW devices or even VV devices don't have a temperature regulation on them, but why the blanket statement that they are no longer SAFE to use anymore?

I never made that blanket! I said vaping at high temp probably wasnt safe. The question then comes, how do you know your temp?

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

 

[Bonskibon]

I never made that blanket! I said vaping at high temp probably wasnt safe. The question then comes, how do you know your temp?

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

I didn't say YOU did, but the flow of the thread was giving that impression. Not your fault, I knew where you were coming from.

 

[Bonskibon]

I don't know... I just want to be happy with what I have and now feel I have to change everything up and not to excited about that. I was doing great for just shy of a year with my gear. I'm just a little disheartened is all.

 

[Aal_]

I don't think we can say vaping is safe anymore, unless you KNOW that 90% of vaper's are not surpassing the 470F point. and a TC device is not enough. if you build a bad coil you can throw the measurements off, you would think you are vaping at 440 but maybe its 480. Then there is the self calibration of devices during the lifetime of the coil. Who knows how many puffs were above that threshold.

This post presents an issue that I cannot ignore. I hope more studies are conducted.

 

[tiburonfirst]

I don't know... I just want to be happy with what I have and now feel I have to change everything up and not to excited about that. I was doing great for just shy of a year with my gear. I'm just a little disheartened is all.

why? do you feel better now than a year ago when you were still smoking? if you are it's simple: you have made a step in the right direction! and you can improve your odds by not chain-vaping on the same device! rotate!

 

[kates]

The only current research (undertaken in response to the CE4 flawed research - 'formaldehyde in ecig' headlines prior to Wang et al research) is the generation 3 tank research which Dr Kurt alludes to which showed that providing there was no dry hits the formaldehyde etc. emissions were very low (using kanthal/ cotton/ wattage). As temp control prevents dry hits I think we can make assumptions that tests would show similar results to those of the kanthal/ cotton etc. (but I don't know of any actual studies which definitively show this) The generation 3 study does suggest that providing there are no dry hits, there will be low levels of emissions - so we do know it is a good idea to avoid dry hits however we vape and not to have temperatures that will cause dry hits (so I agree temperature does matter). I believe Dr F et al are intending further research in this area which I think is a good thing and will hopefully provide further info on real life vaping conditions, different tanks/ coils/ wicks and temperatures etc. In the meantime anyone who vapes with 3rd generation tanks at levels outlined in the above research can be fairly sure they are not being exposed to high levels of emissions.

The Wang et al study only shows that at certain temperatures PG & VG emit high levels of formaldehyde etc. This is not news - we knew this from the CE4 study the only additional info we have is that in the Wang et al conditions (not set up to mimic vaping) there is a measurable temperature for onset of high emissions. This is not an attempt to show what happens when vaping as the way the study is set up makes it impossible. I'm sure the use of 'glass wool' is not a random choice - the study required something which would be capable of withstanding high temperatures. If they had e.g. used cotton - that would have given us (vapers) more info - e.g. at what temp. did the cotton singe/ disintegrate? If it didn't singe/ disintegrate then we, as vapers, could extrapolate that high temperatures can be dangerous and we have no way of knowing the vaping levels (wattage or temp control) that this happens because the cotton remains intact at these temperatures. They weren't interested in the point at which is becomes concerning for vapers - they are working from a completely different perspective - all they wanted to prove was that formaldehyde etc. can be measured at high levels (and therefore is a potential concern for ecigarettes). Had it not happened at the temp. it did - they would have continued raising the temperature until it did so clearly cotton or rayon was not an option. They knew it would happen because of the CE4 research - that was never in question (it was the methods used to arrive at these levels that was the concern in relation to the CE4 research - i.e. burning wick/ coil) There is no attempt to compare their conditions/ results with any device - temperature controlled or otherwise. There are a lot of interesting questions about vaping temperatures but as far as I can see the Wang et al study is of absolutely no use whatsoever in answering them. This is what Dr Kurt was warning against in his presentation - vaping conditions need to be used when researching vaping and in formulating protocols for testing, interpreting results etc..

Short version - temperature matters, keep your wick wet and be careful how you interpret info from studies which are not intended to test real life vaping conditions.

 

[classwife]

Well, we have a tachometer and gauges of all sorts on our vehicles to make sure we are running them right...
We use a timer on the oven to make sure we don't burn our food...
We can use online notifications for our bank accounts and if a purchase is made on our credit card...
We use things all day long that let us know we are within the means of what ever...
So...if we can make sure or vaping is within a better area...I call that great !

 

[tiburonfirst]

I don't think we can say vaping is safe anymore

aal, we were NEVER able to say that! all we can say is vaping is SAFER than smoking!

 

[Aal_]

aal, we were NEVER able to say that! all we can say is vaping is SAFER than smoking!

hi tibz ... yeah i know ... sorry i meant even safer than smoking! I have been vaping for 6 years now. What if during those 6 years i was always above 470?

 

[beckdg]

• Temp matters, so how do you know if vape at safe temps?
• If you dont use a TC device then you really dont know.

I don't know the pressure on my tires or the temperature in my house.

Despite the fact I use several tools to measure both.

With no exact reference for high and low calibration (at a minimum), if you DO USE a TC device, you still haven't the slightest clue.

With no temp readout, even with calibration, you wouldn't have the slightest clue.

Tapatyped

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

You know, the more I think about all this, the more I'm getting a vibe of...

This message brought to you by Evolv, makers of the DNA chips, remember, if you aren't using Evolv chips for your TC, you're not being safe!

Seriously,

1. this research talks about cooking your liquid in a "controlled" environment that vapers don't do, haven't it been established that such studies have all ended up being de-bunked.
2. while the TC settings state "temperatures"... they actually aren't really, they are settings that are set by a variance of resistance as the coil heats up, so as the liquid gets evaporated and with airflow, the vapour itself does not reach these temperatures in any ways.
3. TC detects spikes as so and prevents dry hits, and allows the user to stability the coil's "output" to a certain range.

I'm absolutely for safer vaping, but at some point, if these chemicals are being produced, why haven't we seen or heard about a single case of medical testing on anyone that would show any signs of such "poisoning" or traces of these chemicals in someone's blood or urine. I know that I haven't.

And as others have stated, I've yet to see this research/results being announced to all the media, which would JUMP at the chance to vilify vaping.

So really, at this point, I'm going to walk away from all this and not consider this valid unless some sort of adequate proof comes out....

I guess that we can be our own worst enemy.