New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[zoiDman]

I think much depends on an individual's vaping style.

Am I the only one who noticed there is no time scale on the X axis of the charts that showed the temp rising into the danger zone during puffs?

We know we have 30 seconds of time between puffs, but we have no idea how long the puffs themselves are!

Without TC, there's no doubt that temps will rise as the wick becomes less than saturated. The question is, how long does that take with a given build, at whatever power level it's being operated at?

People talk about the hot last second of a puff that TC tends to prevent. Well, I've never had that problem, probably because my puffs are in the 1.5 to 2 second range, which simply isn't long enough to produce that effect. I also squonk after every puff.

Someone who's doing 5+ second long DL hits likely has an entirely different risk profile without TC than someone who's only pulling in a mouthfull of vapor at a time.

Exactly!

And this is what I saw in my Limited Test on a Subtank Mini. I couldn't get the 420F TC limit to kick in when I did my Normal Hits with a 30 Rest Interval.

But could get the 420F TC to trip when doing 5 Second Interval Chain vaping. Or 2 Very Long Back-2-Back Hits.

Just an Update.

OK... I did a Fresh build on my Subtank Mini. It was 316L 26ga 3mm Coil @ 0.35 Ohms. Put it on a eLeaf Pico with TC set at 420F and 16.0 Watts. e-liquid is 20%PG | 80% VG Unflavored. Muji Cotton Pancake wicking was flavored with Watermelon/Strawberry DIY. Airflow is set to 35% Open using a Toptank Mini New Style Base.

With my normal 5 ~ 6 Second Hit, on 30 Second Intervals (6 Hits Total), the TC never came on.

Doing a 5 ~ 6 Second Hit, on 5 Second Intervals (6 Hits Total), I did get the TC to come on after the 3rd Hit. And TC did Kick in Very Quickly on the 4th and 5th Hit. On the 6th Hit, TC was on about at the start. And the Normal Flavor had diminished. Not Burnt Tasting. Just Over-Used and in need of Rest tasting.

Also, I was able to get the TC to come on if I did Long Back-2-Back Hits with No Rest Interval between Hits.

Also have a Mild Nic Headache. And am in Need of a Big Glass of Water.

 

[GeorgeS]

which Dr F certainly agrees with) - or rather if you heat up glass wool (?) saturated in PG &/or VG at above 450 (?no coil or tank of liquid to replenish the glass wool) in a reactor you will find high levels of formaldehyde etc. Nothing to do with how we vape - so whilst some might assume that glass wool (no coil or tank?) in a reactor at 450 is the same as vaping with a tank/coil/ cotton or rayon wick at 450 I personally can't see the correlation. To me it is similar to 'CE4 in puffer machine/ 3rd generation used by actual vapers' comparison. I can see why a producer of temp control boards may point to it as an indicator to support the value of their product but other than that it appears to me to be an apple & pears situation?

I'm not quite sure where you are getting the "450" number. The charts and text clearly showed that VG heated to a mere 215C (419F) was giving off detectable levels of formaldehyde.

I would tend to trust a repeatable scientific experiment over measuring the output of a random tank/atomizer if the goal was to (as it seemed to be) measure how the different fluids reacted to different temperatures.

 

[NU_FTW]

You don't do TC ? Your doing it wrong. Start using TC or quit vaping, bigot.

oh I do tc. But not dumb enough to think my way is the only way to truly enjoy my vape, and not going to question whether or not some is really enjoying their vape above 500.

ill help with starting out but not going to recommend you change your whole coil and mod etc

 

[FranC]

That almost sounds like it could have been a hot leg. Make sure your coils arent touching. With TC touching coils is a bad thing.

You must have spaced coils,Mike?

 

[kates]

I'm not quite sure where you are getting the "450" number. The charts and text clearly showed that VG heated to a mere 215C (419F) was giving off detectable levels of formaldehyde.

I would tend to trust a repeatable scientific experiment over measuring the output of a random tank/atomizer if the goal was to (as it seemed to be) measure how the different fluids reacted to different temperatures.

I think we agree? The figure is actually irrelevant to the point I was making which is it does show how different fluids reacted to different temperatures under specific conditions - it shows us nothing about how those fluids reacts in assorted tanks/ coils/ at different temperatures when actually vaping.

 

[mikepetro]

You must have spaced coils,Mike?

Yes, I do. I use TI coils and they dont like being compressed to the point of touching, neither does NI. Some here are saying its ok with SS, no experience there myself. However, even with SS, if you are just starting out I would space them anyway, one less variable to go wrong until you get some experience under your belt.

 

[Robino1]

I think we agree? The figure is actually irrelevant to the point I was making which is it does show how different fluids reacted to different temperatures under specific conditions - it shows us nothing about how those fluids reacts in assorted tanks/ coils/ at different temperatures when actually vaping.

And is airflow even taken into consideration?

Is it worth taking into consideration when discussing cooling a coil and liquid?

 

[FranC]

Yes, I do. I use TI coils and they dont like being compressed to the point of touching, neither does NI. Some here are saying its ok with SS, no experience there myself. However, even with SS, if you are just starting out I would space them anyway, one less variable to go wrong until you get some experience under your belt.

Thank you much,sweetie

 

[Qew]

Thanks to @mikepetro for bringing this to the forum, especially since you had to know you'd be a target. You have been very helpful, here and in the stock-up thread, and always a gentleman. I know you and many others help all over the forum in places that I don't visit, but I'm aware that the info is there for me to find if I need it.

I'm the kind that can be resistant to change, especially if something is already working for me. That's probably why I smoked for over 40 years even though that little voice constantly nagged me to stop. Although I believe that the worst damage is done, I don't want to add to it by allowing myself to stay in denial. Just in case.....

I'm going to toss out all the math and science that makes my brain hurt and just give it a try. I have a VT75 nano and several other devices that will do temp control, I've just ignored it until now. If I figure it out, yay, if not, I'm still nearly 5 years off cigs and will continue my tootling as usual. I don't know all the details about my car runs, but I still drive it, right?

One thing that keeps popping up into my thoughts is that I remember reading in a Provape thread that temp control was not actually temp control and that's why they called their version of whatever it was 'coil control'. I've read all the posts in this thread and I think something similar was said, it's not really controlling temp, but reading how the wire reacts, judging the temps based on that reaction and cutting it off when the limit is reached? (Please don't hate on Provape, I'm still in mourning) Like I said, I won't even try to get my head around the details, but is this how it really works?

Who knew we could be hotboxing our vape without knowing it was hot boxed? Eww, remember that?

Can someone please repost the link to the SS wire I need to order to get started? Thanks very much!

 

[Eskie]

And is airflow even taken into consideration?

Is it worth taking into consideration when discussing cooling a coil and liquid?

Only from the perspective of cooling the coil with higher airlfow, but if you were in TC, the resistance would reflect that state (well, it should, hopefully).

 

[Rossum]

Yes, I do. I use TI coils

Wait, didn't you give me some stink-eye when I pretty much the only guy around using Ti on a DNA40 a few weeks after it came out?

 

[Eskie]

post is all messed up

 

[mikepetro]

And is airflow even taken into consideration?

Is it worth taking into consideration when discussing cooling a coil and liquid?

Every variable is a consideration.

Unfortunately I dont think the machine exists that can perfectly simulate (and measure) all aspects of every combination of vape gear available. So science has no choice but to try and isolate pieces of it. Maybe once they get enough "valid" pieces things will get more clear.

Thats a big part of why the FDA is pushing for closed systems, it dramatically reduces the variables to something that can be modeled and measured. Not saying that is good for us though. Obviously, we all like what we like.

 

[Robino1]

Only from the perspective of cooling the coil with higher airlfow, but if you were in TC, the resistance would reflect that state (well, it should, hopefully).

I'm talking more in reference to the study just basically boiling the liquid without actually studying it in a real life situation.

In real life, air is also combined to help the cooling process. Was that taken into consideration when they were testing liquids and temperatures to come to the conclusion that liquids at a certain temp started to release compounds?

 

[Eskie]

SS source Temco wire Special Metal Wire

For @Qew . Sorry the whole quote thing got all messed up. Temco is great for SS

 

[Robino1]

Every variable is a consideration.

Unfortunately I dont think the machine exists that can perfectly simulate (and measure) all aspects of every combination of vape gear available. So science has no choice but to try and isolate pieces of it. Maybe once they get enough "valid" pieces things will get more clear.

Thats a big part of why the FDA is pushing for closed systems, it dramatically reduces the variables to something that can be modeled and measured. Not saying that is good for us though. Obviously, we all like what we like.

So the conclusion, at best, this is more an educated guess? Somewhere to start?

Can I reserve judgement until more is studied? I would hope that this first step can be the start of further investigation rather than the end of such.

Reality though is that it is still magnitudes safer than what we got from cigarettes.

 

[mikepetro]

Wait, didn't you give me some stink-eye when I pretty much the only guy around using Ti on a DNA40 a few weeks after it came out?

Very well might have. That was two years ago, I can hardly remember yesterday.

Back then I was going by the recommendations of Evolv, and John poo-pooed TI big time. He still does.

 

[Eskie]

I'm talking more in reference to the study just basically boiling the liquid without actually studying it in a real life situation.

In real life, air is also combined to help the cooling process. Was that taken into consideration when they were testing liquids and temperatures to come to the conclusion that liquids at a certain temp started to release compounds?

Well, they were blowing air through the SS chamber in order to collect the vapor for testing, and they were monitoring the temperature at the same time, so from that perspective it was allowed for. That does not necessarily equal real world events.

 

[Robino1]

Well, they were blowing air through the SS chamber in order to collect the vapor for testing, and they were monitoring the temperature at the same time, so from that perspective it was allowed for. That does not necessarily equal real world events.

Fair enough

 

[cigatron]

Exactly!

And this is what I saw in my Limited Test on a Subtank Mini. I couldn't get the 420F TC limit to kick in when I did my Normal Hits with a 30 Rest Interval.

But could get the 420F TC to trip when doing 5 Second Interval Chain Vaping. Or 2 Very Long Back-2-Back Hits.

True, we do all have different vaping styles and use different toppers with different builds.
My vaping preference is TC chaining 3sec pulls with every breath until vapor production diminishes due to wick drying.
That and more consistent flavor is primarily why I moved to TC.
Writing this while slamming some great pulls on my Lush Plus RDA @107w with no tc.....