New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Eskie]

So the conclusion, at best, this is more an educated guess? Somewhere to start?

Can I reserve judgement until more is studied? I would hope that this first step can be the start of further investigation rather than the end of such.

Reality though is that it is still magnitudes safer than what we got from cigarettes.

And this is the take home message. And it runs through all the presentations made, not just the formaldehyde thing. It is a good first step that provides additional weight that vaping is reasonable to use for harm reduction. It also lends support to the "if you're not a smoker, don't vape a lot, if at all" recommendation folks around here already routinely make.

More work is needed, but don't stop vaping because of this snippet of data that looks scary when it's viewed out of context.

 

[kiba]

Thanks to @mikepetro for bringing this to the forum, especially since you had to know you'd be a target. You have been very helpful, here and in the stock-up thread, and always a gentleman. I know you and many others help all over the forum in places that I don't visit, but I'm aware that the info is there for me to find if I need it.

I'm the kind that can be resistant to change, especially if something is already working for me. That's probably why I smoked for over 40 years even though that little voice constantly nagged me to stop. Although I believe that the worst damage is done, I don't want to add to it by allowing myself to stay in denial. Just in case.....

I'm going to toss out all the math and science that makes my brain hurt and just give it a try. I have a VT75 nano and several other devices that will do temp control, I've just ignored it until now. If I figure it out, yay, if not, I'm still nearly 5 years off cigs and will continue my tootling as usual. I don't know all the details about my car runs, but I still drive it, right?

One thing that keeps popping up into my thoughts is that I remember reading in a Provape thread that temp control was not actually temp control and that's why they called their version of whatever it was 'coil control'. I've read all the posts in this thread and I think something similar was said, it's not really controlling temp, but reading how the wire reacts, judging the temps based on that reaction and cutting it off when the limit is reached? (Please don't hate on Provape, I'm still in mourning) Like I said, I won't even try to get my head around the details, but is this how it really works?

Who knew we could be hotboxing our vape without knowing it was hot boxed? Eww, remember that?

Can someone please repost the link to the SS wire I need to order to get started? Thanks very much!

28 gauge Stainless Steel Wire - 430 Grade Nickel Free - 200 feet - 100% Guarantee - Creating Unkamen

This is the only one I can guarantee as being 100% legit, it does work extremely well in TC but is a bit hard to work with. Very springy. You'll probably want to make your coils like this...

 

[zoiDman]

True, we do all have different vaping styles and use different toppers with different builds.
My vaping preference is TC chaining 3sec pulls with every breath until vapor production diminishes due to wick drying.
That and more consistent flavor is primarily why I moved to TC.
Writing this while slamming some great pulls on my Lush Plus RDA @107w with no tc.....

I think this what is Lost Sometimes when people read a "Study" or consider some Scientific Phenomenon in Isolation.

That a Study can be 100% Repeatable using Iron Clad Protocols and have the Highest Statistical Insurances. But if the Study does not Accurately Reflect what a Person is Using/Doing, then the Study Results may make No Inferences for that person.

Sometimes there is Nothing Wrong with the Study. It just Doesn't apply well to an Individual.

 

[Lessifer]

I think much depends on an individual's vaping style.

Am I the only one who noticed there is no time scale on the X axis of the charts that showed the temp rising into the danger zone during puffs?

We know we have 30 seconds of time between puffs, but we have no idea how long the puffs themselves are!

Without TC, there's no doubt that temps will rise as the wick becomes less than saturated. The question is, how long does that take with a given build, at whatever power level it's being operated at?

People talk about the hot last second of a puff that TC tends to prevent. Well, I've never had that problem, probably because my puffs are in the 1.5 to 2 second range, which simply isn't long enough to produce that effect. I also squonk after every puff.

Someone who's doing 5+ second long DL hits likely has an entirely different risk profile without TC than someone who's only pulling in a mouthfull of vapor at a time.

And here I thought you were actually reading all of my posts just kidding. I noticed, and noted, that too. I vape a lot like you do, fellow modwomper and all, and I take about a 2-3s draw, and I usually let off the button about a half second before I stop drawing. How many people draw their regulated mods until the 10s cutoff?(quite a few I think) How many let go of the fire button as they stop, or after they stop, drawing air?

And is airflow even taken into consideration?

Is it worth taking into consideration when discussing cooling a coil and liquid?

Only from the perspective of cooling the coil with higher airlfow, but if you were in TC, the resistance would reflect that state (well, it should, hopefully).

Airflow cools the coil, but that SHOULD be reflected in the measured coil temperature. I wonder if airflow has other effects though, do we draw hard enough to lower the pressure around the coil and further lower the boiling point of the liquid? Do we draw hard enough to pull some of the liquid off the coil before it's even vaporized? No idea.

I think this what is Lost Sometimes when people read a "Study" or consider some Scientific Phenomenon in Isolation.

That a Study can be 100% Repeatable using Iron Clad Protocols and have the Highest Statistical Insurances. But if the Study does not Accurately Reflect what a Person is Using/Doing, then the Study Results may make No Inferences for that person.

Sometimes there is Nothing Wrong with the Study. It just Doesn't apply well to an Individual.

This is why it's always important, if you can, to read the methods and results and try to determine if they actually lead to the conclusions given. Especially important in an area where the researchers may only have a cursory knowledge of the real world applications they are trying to emulate.

 

[sonicbomb]

That's really a case where I'd love to see that sort of scenario in person, as at that temp. that would be crazy hot on my builds and tanks.

Even on my RDAs, I get nowhere close to over 500 since I've refined my SS builds.

Precisely. My ideal vape is not like yours, thanks for clarifying that. Outside of the TC pond largish low mass coils at 70 watts is actually pretty moderate.

 

[kates]

Every variable is a consideration.

Unfortunately I dont think the machine exists that can perfectly simulate (and measure) all aspects of every combination of vape gear available. So science has no choice but to try and isolate pieces of it. Maybe once they get enough "valid" pieces things will get more clear.

Thats a big part of why the FDA is pushing for closed systems, it dramatically reduces the variables to something that can be modeled and measured. Not saying that is good for us though. Obviously, we all like what we like.

I completely agree. I think this is what Kurt meant by the importance of standardising puff protocols etc. - so that we get as close as possible to consistently replicating vaping across studies and use real time vapers in studies if possible. The big problem is that things move so fast that research tends to be behind the times.
I don't expect any further studies to be done on sub 10w vaping - I'm happy the research that has been done regarding this by Dr F etc. has shown the way I vape is pretty safe (re: formaldehyde etc.) but I'm equally aware the way I vape has very little relevance to most vapers. I am sure there will be more research and I hope there is - It is really important given the current climate around the world that any studies taken seriously properly understand and reflect real life vaping to make a valid contribution.

 

[Robino1]

And just to throw this out there: Just by the very nature of what we are doing, vaping, we have been encouraged to ask questions of and to not blindly follow studies. This goes both ways, the good and the bad.

Questioning is the only way to dig down to, hopefully, get the truth.

There are always new things: studies, reports, data that we are faced with. Some we agree with, some we don't. Some are just so full of holes that it is easy to see where the flaws are, some have other agendas and make the data fit that agenda. And some are just the beginning of what is needed.

We each are tasked with figuring out what we feel to be correct. We do need to keep an open mind because sometimes, there is some truth even when cloaked in bs.

Bottom line is this should be looked at more but it by no means should we take this as the gospel. This should be a starting point.

We each have the ability to choose and we make those choices daily. I just hope that this study on TC does not take away choices.

 

[awsum140]

Just a quick comment on the Evolv temperature increase graph...If we assume (that nasty little word) that it is a direct copy from Escribe, the puff length would appear to be in the two to four second range. Evolv should have put in a time scale, though, and one wonders why they didn't.

 

[classwife]

Every step of vaping has been 'a starting point'

Let's remember courtesy in here.

If you aren't interested in the subject and only want to post snark, probably best to move on to another thread and not hit the Post Reply button.

Some of these comments in here...well, I would have a difficult time continuing to offer assistance and would just say to heck with you.

I give big kudos to Mike and the others that have so graciously and patiently given their time and expertise in this thread.

We are all just trying to get vaping right for ourselves.
I personally think an extra layer of protection/self assurance never hurts a thing.
Take the info offered and use it or don't - it's your choice.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

One thing that keeps popping up into my thoughts is that I remember reading in a Provape thread that temp control was not actually temp control and that's why they called their version of whatever it was 'coil control'. I've read all the posts in this thread and I think something similar was said, it's not really controlling temp, but reading how the wire reacts, judging the temps based on that reaction and cutting it off when the limit is reached? (Please don't hate on Provape, I'm still in mourning) Like I said, I won't even try to get my head around the details, but is this how it really works?

Can someone please repost the link to the SS wire I need to order to get started? Thanks very much!

How it works is actually simple, at least, here's a simple explanation:

All metal changes it's resistance as it's heated and cooled.

So TC works by using a formula that calculates how much this resistance changes.

So when you put in a coil, most mods can be locked for the resistance read at room temperature (and this gives it a reference point).

Once it's got that, you tell it (set it) to the type of metal so that it uses the correct formula for that metal, and as you pull the trigger, the coil heats up.

As the coil is heating up, the resistance of the metal is metered/read so many times per second, and when you hit the resistance that the formula states that the coil has reached the temp that you set (which is nothing more than a parameter really), it stop the power going to it, and then pulses it to keep the coil at that measurement.

For wire.. just look up any vape store or such as Fastech and look for Stainless Steel 316L wire, and decide the gauge you want.. I recommend 26 gauge for the average build and also 28 gauge for smaller decks.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Precisely. My ideal vape is not like yours, thanks for clarifying that. Outside of the TC pond largish low mass coils at 70 watts is actually pretty moderate, but why let that get in the way eh?

Well, it's simple enough to vape at 70W, even higher, on TC, as I've said earlier, the wattage would only act upon how fast the coil reaches the temperature, but odds are, depending on the coil (mainly) you may hit that temp. set way before you get to that 70W.

For example: I just set my mod at 80W right now, opened my wick feeds a bit, and is didn't change my vape set as 330F. The only difference is that it ramped up a bit faster, so a tiny kick more at first (which balances itself right away and it's using my batteries faster.

 

[cigatron]

Well, it's simple enough to vape at 70W, even higher, on TC, as I've said earlier, the wattage would only act upon how fast the coil reaches the temperature, but odds are, depending on the coil (mainly) you may hit that temp. set way before you get to that 70W.

For example: I just set my mod at 80W right now, opened my wick feeds a bit, and is didn't change my vape set as 330F. The only difference is that it ramped up a bit faster, so a tiny kick more at first (which balances itself right away and it's using my batteries faster.

True with all the newer generation tc mods I've seen lately. Some older tc mods would overrun the set temp if you turned up the power too much above what is required to reach set temp.
Evolve had gone a step or two beyond what some other tc mods have by metering how quickly the temp is rising and throttling back the power before it reaches set temp accordingly. Doesn't really matter if you set your power to 35w or 135w in that respect.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

True with all the newer generation tc mods I've seen lately. Some older tc mods would overrun the set temp if you turned up the power too much above what is required to reach set temp.
Evolve had gone a step or two beyond what some other tc mods have by metering how quickly the temp is rising and throttling back the power before it reaches set temp accordingly. Doesn't really matter if you set your power to 35w or 135w in that respect.

yeah, my SMOK Xcube II doesn't even allow wattage settings in TC, you just set how it's going to hit (low, normal, high and max).

 

[tj99959]

Actually many of us that don't use TC mods still gained a lot from this thread.

Am I going to change the way I vape? .. NO.
Am I going to be a little more careful with what I do? .. Probably.
What I do know is that I will not go back to smoking.

 

[GeorgeS]

I think we agree? The figure is actually irrelevant to the point I was making which is it does show how different fluids reacted to different temperatures under specific conditions - it shows us nothing about how those fluids reacts in assorted tanks/ coils/ at different temperatures when actually vaping.

I think we agree that having reference information on how some actual popular atomizers perform would be useful however I believe that having data from isolating the fluids from the atomizers in a lab environment was also useful.

I'd like to see temperature measurements from the left, right and center of a coil under TC control as well.

 

[cigatron]

Actually many of us that don't use TC mods still gained a lot from this thread.

Am I going to change the way I vape? .. NO.
Am I going to be a little more careful with what I do? .. Probably.
What I do know is that I will not go back to smoking.

That's good and I think that's what Mike was trying to do with this thread.

 

[classwife]

( I couldn't resist...)

 

[NU_FTW]

would be awesome to have a q & a with those involved in the various studies.

while the likelihood of my vape being safe at my current temp i use is supported, still don't know if tc is even needed to be safe, or whether or not tc provides any measure of safety with regard to the results.

would love to get more answers on methodology and more

 

[tj99959]

would be awesome to have a q & a with those involved in the various studies.

while the likelihood of my vape being safe at my current temp i use is supported, still don't know if tc is even needed to be safe, or whether or not tc provides any measure of safety with regard to the results.

would love to get more answers on methodology and more

Exactly my thoughts.

here is "my " example, and why I question it all.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170309/e16317bb3527fa918a115242bb4926b1.jpg

Now my coil is twice that resistance, and my power level is ~ 1/3 that.
So is my vape safer or more dangerous??

BTW, your their battery is about dead

 

[Mowgli]

They must have money to burn at those studies.
Setting up ridiculous contraptions to do everything except simulate real vaping activity.

Here's a typical build on a typical mod and here's a typical build on a tootlepuffer rig.
Machine uses typical draw at various settings to collect lifelike vape clouds.
Analyze chemicals found in collected clouds.
Compare findings from different power levels to give usable safety data.

suck>analyze>compare
Now was that so freaking hard?