New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Because we aren't slow cooking it under pressure, where's feeding it massive amount of heat energy that does that misting (that I've hopefully explained clearly enough in these last few posts) that cools it as it goes.

Think of it as a car or a refridgerator.. the engine gets really hot.. the coolants aren't ever as hot as the motor because the cooling system cools it while it's always in movement. If you didn't have that cooling system pump, well.. BOOM... some idea here.

Same car, leave the radiator cap open (take pressure out of the equation), is not the coolant going to be 212F (or whatever boiling point the anti-freeze adjusts it to) before it converts to steam? In order to create steam (at atmospheric pressure) the liquid has to reach its boiling point first. No?

 

[Lessifer]

The boiling point of Glycerol (VG) is 290 °C (554 °F; 563 K)
The boiling point of Propylene glycol is 188.2 °C (370.8 °F; 461.3 K)

So how can we say a high VG mix cant get to 470°F ?

If someone is vaping PURE VG they might have a problem. Kurt showed that having a 90:10 mix of VG and distilled water lowers the boiling point from 290C to something like 140C. So, while we might not have the actual numbers, it's probably pretty safe to say that most e-liquid has a boiling point lower than 470F.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I think that the car analogy covers best what I'm trying to convey...

The coil, like a car engine, gets really hot, and the coolant (liquid / antifreeze ... OH CRAP I'm mentionning these two together!!) ismply sucks as much heat as it can to move on and goes on to get cooled off.. the rate of the liquid's absorption of energy is what turns it into the micro droplets.. they can't absorb any more energy, 'cause at that point, they are long gone from a distance that the heat energy of the coil is able to give them more.

The reason why we do have warmer mist, is that the heat radiation can maintain itself at a longer "range" but is actually heating that air that you're giving it as you suck that vape.. so that heat/warmth, is more the heated air than the temperature of the liquid in this mist.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Same car, leave the radiator cap open (take pressure out of the equation), is not the coolant going to be 212F (or whatever boiling point the anti-freeze adjusts it to) before it converts to steam? In order to create steam (at atmospheric pressure) the liquid has to reach its boiling point first. No?

The difference is that a car's cooling system is pressurized.. so the liquid IS over it's boiling point already.

The similarity for the analogy is more that while the liquid is pressurized and very hot (and even beyond it's boiling temperature), it is STILL never as hot as the car's engine. (otherwise, it wouldn't be a "coolant".. right?)

 

[cigatron]

it's all about energy transference.. between the liquid absorption rate and the cooling of the air flow, the amount of energy "wasted" is crazy.

Can the delta temp between coil and liquid be calculated?

 

[mikepetro]

If someone is vaping PURE VG they might have a problem. Kurt showed that having a 90:10 mix of VG and distilled water lowers the boiling point from 290C to something like 140C. So, while we might not have the actual numbers, it's probably pretty safe to say that most e-liquid has a boiling point lower than 470F.

Granted, the boiling point is something below 554F in our juices. No clue what the numbers are at my 50/50 mix, but if PG is 380F, and VG is 554F then my juice is somewhere in between those two numbers.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Can the delta temp between coil and liquid be calculated?

Probably but I don't have the tools, but it should be calculable... but my brain needs coolant itself after this session... LOL.

And that's the trouble.. what I've just explained, is what needs to be done for proper testing, trouble is, they are too busy trying to find ways to overheat liquid in a wrong approach instead.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Granted, the boiling point is something below 554F in our juices. No clue what the numbers are at my 50/50 mix, but if PG is 380F, and VG is 554F then my juice is somewhere in between those two numbers.

But the trouble is... we aren't "boiling" the liquid, we are exciting it with heat radiation energy to cause it to to go into an aerosol.... you can do that with water at room temperature (misting humidifiers). Once it's into an aerosol, it no longer absorbs ANY energy, doesn't, can't get hotter, it's now long gone from the coil's range and already cooling down, transferring this energy back to it's surrounding (and part of the the warmth still)... have you ever blow your vapour as it's coming out of your mouth only your hand... it's COLD... THAT is this energy transference that I'm talking about.

As I stated before, should someone build a small portable misting apparatus, with a air warmer integrated to provided the warmth... that would absolutely kill all these crap tests... them they'd be looking at "well, let's see what we can invent and come up with to make the liquid as it is into something bad..."

 

[zoiDman]

...

Think of it as a car or a refridgerator.. the engine gets really hot.. the coolants aren't ever as hot as the motor because the cooling system cools it while it's always in movement. If you didn't have that cooling system pump, well.. BOOM... some idea here.

Is this a Good Analogy to use?

Cause the Coolant pump in your car Moves a Lot of Coolant for any given Time Interval. And the Coolant has someplace to go. And Doesn't just sit in Contact with a Hot Engine Block absorbing Heat until it Vaporizes.

Not saying that the e-Liquid in a Coil is completely Static. But the e-Liquid Isn't being Circulated.

 

[mikepetro]

But the trouble is... we aren't "boiling" the liquid, we are exciting it with heat radiation energy to cause it to to go into an aerosol.... you can do that with water at room temperature (misting humidifiers). Once it's into an aerosol, it no longer absorbs ANY energy, doesn't, can't get hotter, it's now long gone from the coil's range and already cooling down, transferring this energy back to it's surrounding (and part of the the warmth still)... have you ever blow your vapour as it's coming out of your mouth only your hand... it's COLD... THAT is this energy transference that I'm talking about.

As I stated before, should someone build a small portable misting apparatus, with a air warmer integrated to provided the warmth... that would absolutely kill all these crap tests... them they'd be looking at "well, let's see what we can invent and come up with to make the liquid as it is into something bad..."

Getting above my head. But I "kinda" get it. The fallacy being that vapor must have reached a boiling point.

I use venturi style nebulizers for making a fog of essential oils for aromatic purposes. Fog could be considered an aerosol. Early ecigs were ultrasonic nebulizers.

Still, if a coil is say 500F I have trouble understanding that it wont boil a PG/VG mix.

Anyway, I still say temperature matters, I can taste it.

 

[sofarsogood]

The California guys built a contraption to burn liquid with minimal power for the purpose of producing toxic chemicals. They would have considered the device a failure unless it produced bad stuff. Does it prove or disprove anything about what any of us are doing, no. Evolv likes the experiment because it makes their product appear more important. If everybody in California stops smoking the State will go bankrupt and those so called scientists will lose their funding and end up working at Taco Bell. Vaping is one of those issues where it is the government and their dependents who have the conflict of interest. It's concerning that they don't acknowledge it.

 

[Lessifer]

Is this a Good Analogy to use?

Cause the Coolant pump in your car Moves a Lot of Coolant for any given Time Interval. And the Coolant has someplace to go. And Doesn't just sit in Contact with a Hot Engine Block absorbing Heat until it Vaporizes.

Not saying that the e-Liquid in a Coil is completely Static. But the e-Liquid Isn't being Circulated.

Its not being circulated, it's also a very thin layer of liquid at the coil in most cases. It's not as if the coil is submerged in a tank of liquid.

 

[cigatron]

But the trouble is... we aren't "boiling" the liquid, we are exciting it with heat radiation energy to cause it to to go into an aerosol.... you can do that with water at room temperature (misting humidifiers). Once it's into an aerosol, it no longer absorbs ANY energy, doesn't, can't get hotter, it's now long gone from the coil's range and already cooling down, transferring this energy back to it's surrounding (and part of the the warmth still)... have you ever blow your vapour as it's coming out of your mouth only your hand... it's COLD... THAT is this energy transference that I'm talking about.

As I stated before, should someone build a small portable misting apparatus, with a air warmer integrated to provided the warmth... that would absolutely kill all these crap tests... them they'd be looking at "well, let's see what we can invent and come up with to make the liquid as it is into something bad..."

I've learned a tremendous amount from you these last 24hrs. Thanks for that.
You have me confounded though with regards to coil temp vs. liquid temp. I understand what you are driving at and it sounds perfectly reasonable but that really throws a curve in my pitch to advocate tc at temps than 470°f. Darn it, just when I thought I had it figured out.

I forgot to bookmark the post early which identified the temp barrier phenomenon. What was it called again?

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Getting above my head. But I "kinda" get it. The fallacy being that vapor must have reached a boiling point.

I use venturi style nebulizers for making a fog of essential oils for aromatic purposes. Fog could be considered an aerosol. Early ecigs were ultrasonic nebulizers.

Still, if a coil is say 500F I have trouble understanding that it wont boil a PG/VG mix.

Anyway, I still say temperature matters, I can taste it.

By the time your coil is at 500F (for example) that VG/PG that was the closest to the coil is long gone, it's not going to reach that temperature, it hit the level of energy to turn into the mist, you're to the point where you're also heating the air molecules that are traveling into the chamber (absorbing that heat energy), and put that together and you should understand that heat affect flavours.. eat a steak that's been cooked at the same level, one piece cold and one hot, the heat changes how we taste stuff.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I've learned a tremendous amount from you these last 24hrs. Thanks for that.
You have me confounded though with regards to coil temp vs. liquid temp. I understand what you are driving at and it sounds perfectly reasonable but that really throws a curve in my pitch to advocate tc. Darn it, just when I thought I had it figured out.

I forgot to bookmark the post early which identified the temp barrier phenomenon. What was it called again?

Leidenfrost effect

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

 

[cigatron]

Leidenfrost effect

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

Thanks.

See you guys later.....off to read some white papers.....again

 

[sofarsogood]

I had trouble copying and pasting from the link below. It may be that the coil turns the liquid into vapor by boiling the water content. The boiling points of pg and vg may be irrelevent. may be adding a bit of water to aid the boiling is good for safety? Does the water in eliquid help prevent over heating when firing? Do we understand how e liquid is turned into vapor. Do those rocket scientists in Cali know?

"The heat evaporates the water first which steam atomizes the glycerol or propylene glycol (mpg) molecules. The vapour temperature will not be far above water boiling point, otherwise it would burn the user's tongue. ">2 mL2 mL e-liquid is incomparably less than formaldehyde consumed from fish..."
How does propylene glycol/glycerin form formaldehyde/acetaldehyde when vaporized with a vaporizer?

 

[Katya]

I've been doing the "M" wick approach, where the cotton/wick goes up a bit (each side) and folds a bit before going down to the feed holes for my decks that are bottom fed.

AKA shoulders, in our parlance. Critical with rayon builds.

 

[Katya]

With the deeming, that may well (and unfortunately) change.

And all progress (new technologies, approaches, solutions, inventions), all INNOVATION will be stopped in its tracks. That's the scariest part of the FDA involvement.

 

[Domejunky]

I had trouble copying and pasting from the link below. It may be that the coil turns the liquid into vapor by boiling the water content. The boiling points of pg and vg may be irrelevent. may be adding a bit of water to aid the boiling is good for safety? Does the water in eliquid help prevent over heating when firing? Do we understand how e liquid is turned into vapor. Do those rocket scientists in Cali know?

"The heat evaporates the water first which steam atomizes the glycerol or propylene glycol (mpg) molecules. The vapour temperature will not be far above water boiling point, otherwise it would burn the user's tongue. ">2 mL2 mL e-liquid is incomparably less than formaldehyde consumed from fish..."
How does propylene glycol/glycerin form formaldehyde/acetaldehyde when vaporized with a vaporizer?

That's really interesting. Unfortunately there's a PayWall on the paper. I'm going to see if I can get it via the University network...