New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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How did you not think this thread would end up being about tc? It's the most accurate way of controlling temp at the coil that we have access to today.
Is "spitty vapor" same as dry-puff though ?
The reason i ask is that looking at aerosol yields for the PT and CE4 in Kurts test, as power level increases, so does aldehyde levels and aerosol yield, with the exception of the CE4 when power is increased from 7.8 to 9, in that scenario aerosol yield actually goes down.
No, it's actually the opposite. Aerosol yield will increase with power until the wick dries out too much.
The PT was obviously not dry hitting, just running at a high enough power level to bring the liquid temp above safe levels.
Pretty much what I believe the last test proved. You don't have to dry hit to begin to see toxin levels rise.
I'm not trying to start a pizzing contest, but you are ignoring the cooling effects of air and liquid flows that are present in an atomizer. What power produces a specific temperature on a dry coil in free air is significantly lower than the power needed on a wet coil that has, relatively, significant air flow around it. Yes, the power can be accurately predicted, but that does not translate, directly, to temperature under the varying conditions of vaping.
Based on the exceedingly small, teeny tiny dataset we have at this point? ~470F.
Will that prove to be the magic number? We don't know.
Well, that's the temperature in the steel tube reactor where the liquid is only in contact with glass wool, right? I wish I understood how that works, I think I read that the tube was within some kind of oven/kiln.
Our coils heat the liquid via conduction, would the tube reactor be radiation, conduction or convection? Does that have any effect on how the liquid reacts to temperature changes?
Breakdown of the pg/vg? On a properly calibrated dna I get a lot more vapor output at say 490° than I do at 420°. According to the latest test I'm being poisoned AND getting more vapor.
ETA That's with no dry hits, no foul taste and no detectable poisons.
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Exactly that's how I believe this study is. The set up they used can't handle that high of a wattage, like the mods now a days can. Besides, the way they tested I feel like it would be unvapeable anways. If you were vaping formeldahyde you would taste it. I vape with a tfv8 and smok g priv at 90-95 watts and I never get any nasty hits or anything. I know this thread isn't about burnt hits and i'm not talking about burnt hits. All i'm saying is it wouldn't taste pleasant jf you over heated your set up and were vaping formeldahyde . The mods and tanks now a days are meant to handle high voltage and high wattage. So as of now, i'm going to keep sub ohming the way I do until they actually do a study with the mods and tanks that they have now a days.
Well, that's my question, if your coil is at 490, does that mean that the liquid itself is actually reaching 490? I don't know the science behind this so I'm actually asking, but from what I've been reading the temperature of a liquid usually only exceeds its boiling point if it is under greater than average air pressure. Something just isn't clicking in my head.
Up until the FDA stuck their nose in our business, the problem was our hardware advanced faster than the science folks could test it. Kind of like Consumer Reports magazine used to be, labs would set up a test, but the hardware was obsolete by the time the test results became known.
With the deeming, that may well (and unfortunately) change.
Agreed, something doesnt quite make sense. Nonetheless I can taste differences of just 20 degrees in my vape. Could we be superheating the vapor after it is produced?
The way they set up that experiment is not connected to wattage, but to temperature. Formaldehyde cannot always be tasted, especially at lower levels. Flavorings that are present can easily mask other chemicals. Even unflavored might taste "fine" but still have measurable amounts of aldehydes in it. None of that should change your personal decision and choice as to how you vape, but you cannot claim you're continuing to vape that way because you don't believe the data presented.
And yeah, that's a problem. It was not set up in the standard "vape" setting of a coil of wire around a wick and heated up as too many complaints about how the "chosen" wire/wick setup wasn't representative of average setups in use. They tried to sidestep that by going the "device independent" route, but have not shown how the temperatures they tested at maps to actual vape gear.
The problem started, and this thread started, not because of a test showing aldehyde formation at 470F (or at least I don't think it would have in isolation) but because someone (cough....Evolv....cough) tried to use that data to support an untested claim that temp control would save the day. That disconnect, easily addressed by simply doing the experiment with a TC board and wire, is where all the fuss is coming from. If Evolv had taken that data, gone out, tested tanks at different temps, and found aldehyde production occurred at similar temps to that chamber study, we would have something real to drive our decision making. They didn't do that, and we have over 60 pages of conjecture because of that.
I don't think we're superheating after it's produced, because I think we'd feel that in the short distance between coil and mouth, just a guess though. My completely OOMA(out of my ***) theory is that up to a certain temperature we get normal vaporization, temps that exceed the boiling point, then if you have a spike that is far above boiling point we get thermal breakdown, and the most common cause of that spike would be a "dry hit." All pure unfounded speculation though.
I get what your saying. But idk, I just feel like you're not going to be getting formeldahyde with a sub ohm unless you chainvape for a good 5-10 minutes without letting it cool down. See me, when I hit my vape I'll hit it 4-5 times in a minute or two and then set it down. If it gets hot I won't vape it since I can't use tc cause I have a tfv 8. But I would like to see studies with sub ohm devices just cause i'm curious .
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