New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[cigatron]

For me the key issue in relation to the test findings that kicked off this whole discussion is ~ does a coil at x temperature equal juice at x temperature. I'm beginning to strongly believe that Leidenfrost effect that Imfallen_Angel mentioned way earlier back in this thread means that it does not get even remotely close. Bear in mind that this effect allows a naked hand to be plunged into liquid nitrogen at -321F and remain uninjured. I have also seen the same test done of mythbusters using a wet hand and molten lead at +621F.

I'm leaning towards this theory as well. It answers too many of my long standing questions about atty behavior at varying temps and airflow to be ignored.

Leidenfrost Effect

In effect the wide difference in temperature of the man's hand and the super cold liquid nitrogen is forming a vapor barrier between his flesh and the liquid. Vapor and pop shots.....where have I seen that before?

 

[sofarsogood]

For about 18 months my TC settings have been 400 F and 30 watts and never changed. Last night I reduced temp to 240 F and still vaping that this morning. Do I like it as much as 400? Yes and no. When the wick in my rda is heavily saturated I can't tell the difference because the coil temp often doesn't go past 240 during my 1.2 second puffs. That's something I'm learning very recently thanks to the Arctic Fox firmware which tells me max temp and watts after each puff. At the moment the wick is reletively dry. The last puff recorded 208 F and just 3.3 watts to get there. The vapor was thinner and cooler, may be reminiscent of my N mini days. I wouldn't go back to smoking if this was the best I could get although these settings might not have got me off smoking in the first place. If I vaped this setup long enough I'd probably get used to it and not need to go back to higher temps.

I highly recommend putting Arctic Fox firmware on a compatible device and setting it up so you can see the temp and power on each puff. May be that sweet spot you've found is not using as much heat as you believe.

 

[Rossum]

You have to wear a starched, pressed, white shirt with a short, heavily starched, collar, polka dot bow tie and horn rimmed glasses (whether you need glasses or not). If you don't, the veracity of your results will be seriously questioned.

Then someone else is gonna have to do this.

 

[tj99959]

Honestly the FDA has me thinking about stocking up on a few Mech mods. Screw the TC mods they won't last the test of time. You can fix any mech with a Home Depot visit.

Lordy, I did just that years ago.

And, Home Depot is just two blocks away.
That's also why I don't own any TC mods, and probably never will.

TBH, I still worry far more about the vaping industry being shut down than I do about possible trace amounts of formaldehyde.

 

[mikepetro]

These three posts describing the Leidehfrost Effect and comments regarding how and why our ejuice becomes vaporized and converts to aerosol has tickled my common sense detector. It explains of few of the things I've had questions about for years.

1. Why does an atty produce more vapor when you blow on it?
2. How does an atty produce vg vapor if the coil temp hasn't reached 554°f?
3. Why does an atty produce less vapor at the same power setting as the body of the atty gets hotter?

And more recent questions:
1 How can coil temp possibly be higher than the fluid surrounding it?
2. Why does adding fluids with lower boiling points than vg require lower power levels.

I can't prove that the Leidenfrost Effect answers those questions for sure but it has definitely struck a chord with me.

If it is true that the fluid from a saturated wick is being converted to vapor while being isolated from the coil due to a high temperature deltas and the vapor is being produced as a result of thermal reactance, the vapor and aerosol most certainly could be lower in temp than the coil. That would be great news for us and not so great news for Evolve.

I have my doubts about this Leidenfrost Effect.

In a discussion with Evolv engineers regarding preheat on the DNA, they told me this:

Set preheat to 300F which is slightly below the boiling point, then higher post pre-heat power just speeds up the time to vapor (just like boiling water on High vs Medium... if what you care about is the steam) it doesn't matter until it starts boiling.

Now I know some see Evolv as having a vested interest, but this conversation had nothing to do with studys, or sales, or anything else. This was in the context of how to get the most out of their product.

 

[Eskie]

I have my doubts about this Leidenfrost Effect.

In a discussion with Evolv engineers regarding preheat on the DNA, they told me this:

"Set preheat to 300F which is slightly below the boiling point, then higher post pre-heat power just speeds up the time to vapor (just like boiling water on High vs Medium... if what you care about is the steam) it doesn't matter until it starts boiling."

Now I know some see Evolv as having a vested interest, but this conversation had nothing to do with studys, or sales, or anything else. This was in the context of how to get the most out of their product.

Ah, on a DNA, the preheat setting is a power function only in wattage, and typically you use a high wattage preheat followed by a lower wattage limited TC to keep it at temperature. There's no way I know of to set the preheat to 300F. I'm confused.

 

[mikepetro]

I think we do need more technical information.

• Is a TC mod reading resistance, reactance, or impedance? - Resitance
  
• I've heard it explained as resistance change in the wire as the temp changes. How do various wires relate to the algorithm in the firmware? - the algorithm use the TCR of the wire
  
• And most of all how accurate are the readings? - If properly configured, very accurate
  
• How can we sense the danger point on a non-TC vape? - Dont know beyond sensing a burnt hit, "if" there is any danger prior to burnt hit I dont know hot to detect it.
  
• Does it burn our tongue? ??
  
• Do we just sense something more than warmth? ??
  
• Can we even tell when bad chemicals are in the vape? ??

 

[mikepetro]

TC mods save a buck or two by using wire resistance change as the reading, rather than paying for a thermistor and a chip to read and interpret its output.

Not really. The Mod isnt saving any money, unless it is a closed system pod Mod. That because the Mod cant use a thermistor on the coil of 1000 unknown attys. The thermistor would have to be in the atty, and then a mod could utilize it.

 

[mikepetro]

Ah, on a DNA, the preheat setting is a power function only in wattage, and typically you use a high wattage preheat followed by a lower wattage limited TC to keep it at temperature. There's no way I know of to set the preheat to 300F. I'm confused.

Youre, right, you have to do an approximation.

The context of the discussion was they recommended you set your preheat watts lower than you max watts setting. Ie not to use preheat to reach the boiling point.

My whole point is they are clearly using the boiling point, not the Leidenfrost Effect

 

[Eskie]

misunderstanding, my bad

 

[mikepetro]

The context was doing something like this:
Where preheat is substantially lower than Max Power.

 

[LoriP1702]

So, I'm on page 42. Much of this is way over my head, but I'm glad for the information, and will continue to try to catch up over the course of this weekend.

Someone who has been reading this thread pm'd me asking what top device they should use now for say ego devices.

I mean, in your opinions, what would be best to recommend for those just starting, or those who aren't comfortable with the more advanced mods, and those who haven't built coils??

My apologies in advance if this is addressed in the section I haven't gotten to yet.

 

[mikepetro]

So, I'm on page 42. Much of this is way over my head, but I'm glad for the information, and will continue to try to catch up over the course of this weekend.

Someone who has been reading this thread pm'd me asking what top device they should use now for say ego devices.

I mean, in your opinions, what would be best to recommend for those just starting, or those who aren't comfortable with the more advanced mods, and those who haven't built coils??

My apologies in advance if this is addressed in the section I haven't gotten to yet.

I am out of touch with those attys, since I have been rebuilding for so long.

Off the cuff I would recommend a Pico and an atty that uses SSOCC coils as a starter.

 

[LoriP1702]

I am out of touch with those attys, since I have been rebuilding for so long.

Off the cuff I would recommend a Pico and an atty that uses SSOCC coils as a starter.

Thanks Mike.
I am *completely* out of touch with those attys too, for the same reason.
I very MUCH appreciate the input.

 

[kiba]

The context was doing something like this:
Where preheat is substantially lower than Max Power.

View attachment 640473

That's the one thing I never understood, I leave all of mine at 6 but what exactly does preheat punch quantify to?

 

[mikepetro]

That's the one thing I never understood, I leave all of mine at 6 but what exactly does preheat punch quantify to?

Punch is a crude temp setting, with 1 = lower temp and 11 = higher temp. I do not know exactly what temp correlation they use though. Perhaps its a % of the set temp.

 

[Rossum]

My whole point is they are clearly using the boiling point, not the Leidenfrost Effect

You can't have Leidenfrost Effect until the heat source (in our case the coil) is somewhat above the boiling point of the liquid in question.

 

[zoiDman]

For me the key issue in relation to the test findings that kicked off this whole discussion is ~ does a coil at x temperature equal juice at x temperature. I'm beginning to strongly believe that Leidenfrost effect that Imfallen_Angel mentioned way earlier back in this thread means that it does not get even remotely close. Bear in mind that this effect allows a naked hand to be plunged into liquid nitrogen at -321F and remain uninjured. I have also seen the same test done of mythbusters using a wet hand and molten lead at +621F.

I'm leaning towards this theory as well. It answers too many of my long standing questions about atty behavior at varying temps and airflow to be ignored.

Leidenfrost Effect
View attachment 640455

In effect the wide difference in temperature of the man's hand and the super cold liquid nitrogen is forming a vapor barrier between his flesh and the liquid. Vapor and pop shots.....where have I seen that before?

If you Leaning towards a Theory, why don't you take it out of the Mental Realm and do some Home Science.

Place a Cookie Sheet in your Oven and heat it to say 450F. Now pull it out and Drop a Glob of Nicotine Base and Cotton onto the Cookie Sheet. What do you observe?

Now do the Same thing with a Glob of your Day2Day Flavored e-Liquid and Cotton. Same Same?

What happens when the Cookie sheet is say 420F?

What happens when the Cookie sheet is say 500?

Does the Vapor coming off the Cookie sheet Smell Good?

Or is the a Hint of "Peach Blossoms and Biter Almonds"?

 

[DaveP]

Not really. The Mod isnt saving any money, unless it is a closed system pod Mod. That because the Mod cant use a thermistor on the coil of 1000 unknown attys. The thermistor would have to be in the atty, and then a mod could utilize it.

It wouldn't be that hard for manufacturers to add a thermistor to the coil deck. Mod manufacturers would have to support it with additional chip mods, though. Compatibility would require industry wide cooperation. Pinout configuration would have to be a standard and there'd have to be a modified center pin to support the connection. The sensor would probably have to be directly under the coil on the deck and air flow around the coil and sensor would sway readings.

 

[sofarsogood]

So, I'm on page 42. Much of this is way over my head, but I'm glad for the information, and will continue to try to catch up over the course of this weekend.

Someone who has been reading this thread pm'd me asking what top device they should use now for say ego devices.

I mean, in your opinions, what would be best to recommend for those just starting, or those who aren't comfortable with the more advanced mods, and those who haven't built coils??

My apologies in advance if this is addressed in the section I haven't gotten to yet.

When I started 2 1/2 years ago the advice was to start with a higher ohm coil at about 8-10 watts. I still advise that and if you're lucky you won't feel the need to go beyond that. A refinement would be having that setup with temp control and having a readout saying the actual max temperature of the coil after each puff because then you might be reassured you're no where near that big bad scary 470 F where the California guys say all tha bad stuff happens. This morning I'm vaping in temp control with max temp set at 260 and using about 10 watts to get there and it reminds me of my Nautilus mini experience which many consider the classic beginner atomizer. Unfortunately this set up I'm bragging about took some time to figure out. I don't know what to recommend to a brandnewbie to do what I'm doing this morning.