New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Rossum]

It wouldn't be that hard for manufacturers to add a thermistor to the coil deck. mod manufacturers would have to support it with additional chip mods, though. Compatibility would require industry wide cooperation.

Why do you think that a thermistor is a better way of measuring the temperature of a coil than using the TCR of the coil itself?

How do you propose to keep the thermistor in intimate contact with the coil?

What happens as the coil begins to gunk up?

 

[LoriP1702]

When I started 2 1/2 years ago the advice was to start with a higher ohm coil at about 8-10 watts. I still advise that and if you're lucky you won't feel the need to go beyond that. A refinement would be having that setup with temp control and having a readout saying the actual max temperature of the coil after each puff because then you might be reassured you're no where near that big bad scary 470 F where the California guys say all tha bad stuff happens. This morning I'm vaping in temp control with max temp set at 260 and using about 10 watts to get there and it reminds me of my Nautilus mini experience which many consider the classic beginner atomizer. Unfortunately this set up I'm bragging about took some time to figure out. I don't know what to recommend to a brandnewbie to do what I'm doing this morning.

Thanks for that.
I really appreciate the input for those who are reading, that aren't familiar with all these different methods.
(like me)

 

[DaveP]

Why do you think that a thermistor is a better way of measuring the temperature of a coil than using the TCR of the coil itself?

How do you propose to keep the thermistor in intimate contact with the coil?

What happens as the coil begins to gunk up?

The sensor could be an infrared proximity sensor and not contact based.

It's just a thought. If you depend on change in wire resistance being linear with heat, it's probably not going to be that accurate throughout the wide ranges in wattage that vapers push a coil. A thermistor would be an accurate reading from 10 watts though 200W or higher. Its job would be singular measurement of a heat source.

The concept is probably far too expensive for the competitive price market we have these days. No one would pay the price for the mod or buy high priced specialty atomizers that would only work with the new hardware.

The resistance change in coil wire is probably close enough for vaping temp regulation. It's probably the most elegant implementation. It's simple and ingenious if it's accurate.

 

[zoiDman]

You can't have Leidenfrost Effect until the heat source (in our case the coil) is somewhat above the boiling point of the liquid in question.

Yeah... They call that the Leidenfrost Point.

I think for Water, the Leidenfrost Point can occur as low as 380F. So there is roughly a 168F Temperature Differential of Boiling Point to the Leidenfrost Point. But many factors influence the Leidenfrost Point. And I believe it is usually Higher (upper 400's ?) for Water and a Steel Alloy.

Leidenfrost effect | Engineers Edge | www.engineersedge.com

Also, this is worth Noting....

"For example, for saturated water-copper interface, the Leidenfrost temperature is 257 °C (495 °F). The Leidenfrost temperatures for glycerol and common alcohols are significantly smaller due to their lower surface tension values (density and viscosity differences are also contributing factors.)"

Leidenfrost effect - Wikipedia

 

[mikepetro]

It wouldn't be that hard for manufacturers to add a thermistor to the coil deck. Mod manufacturers would have to support it with additional chip mods, though. Compatibility would require industry wide cooperation. Pinout configuration would have to be a standard and there'd have to be a modified center pin to support the connection. The sensor would probably have to be directly under the coil on the deck and air flow around the coil and sensor would sway readings.

Yep, pretty much will only work in pod mod type closed systems. Industry standardization is a lofty goal, the 510 became a standard through evolution, but it was driven by consumer demand, not standardization.

I know of pod mod systems on the drawing boards that do include direct temperature measurement, but you have to use their pods, and ONLY their pods.

I doubt it would ever become a reality in open systems.

 

[DaveP]

Yep, pretty much will only work in pod mod type closed systems. Industry standardization is a lofty goal, the 510 became a standard through evolution, but it was driven by consumer demand, not standardization.

I know of pod mod systems on the drawing boards that do include direct temperature measurement, but you have to use their pods, and ONLY their pods.

I doubt it would ever become a reality in open systems.

Back when ecigs first become popular it was all mech style. The eGo began the variable revolution with voltage regulation.

When temp control came about they used the simplest method that was compatible with standard atomizers and I think that was ingenious. The KISS method is usually the best method until newer tech becomes cheap.

The wire resistance change method used in present temp control leaves room for questions about how various brands of wire change in resistance as temperature fluctuates. Maybe it's not that big a deal if there's wide variance that's not detectable in the vape. It could explain the reasons some mods do TC better than others, though.

 

[sofarsogood]

Thanks for that.
I really appreciate the input for those who are reading, that aren't familiar with all these different methods.
(like me)

Some of what i'm referring to is new to me. I put open source firmware on a Pico that's telling me what's happening real time and how it's different from my settings. I'm finding this very useful. It's not so hard. You get a Pico or VTC mini ($25-40), add Arctic fox fiirmware and configure it for the real time feedback then put on an atomizer using temp control wire and see what temps and energy give what results. But that's usually too much for a beginner just trying too quit smoking. My recommend is start with a setup that's optimized for 10 watts, learn how to vape, get off cigarettes, read and read and read some more--instead of throwing money at things. If you want to understand all this stuff we're talking about give it time and you will but you don't need any of it to stop smoking by vaping.

 

[mikepetro]

I would like to see a Mod where you could put a loop of straight wire, of some standard length like 100mm or so, and then the mod automatically calculate the TCR for that wire.

 

[Eskie]

I would like to see a Mod where you could put a loop of straight wire, of some standard length like 100mm or so, and then the mod automatically calculate the TCR for that wire.

Even better if it can spin it into a Clapton, wrap it and wick it for you. I'm lazy and I'd buy it.

 

[Lessifer]

I have my doubts about this Leidenfrost Effect.

In a discussion with Evolv engineers regarding preheat on the DNA, they told me this:



Now I know some see Evolv as having a vested interest, but this conversation had nothing to do with studys, or sales, or anything else. This was in the context of how to get the most out of their product.

Yeah... They can that the Leidenfrost Point.

I think for Water, the Leidenfrost Point can occur as low as 380F. So there is roughly a 168F Temperature Differential of Boiling Point to the Leidenfrost Point. But many factors influence the Leidenfrost Point. And I believe it is usually Higher (upper 400's ?) for Water and a Steel Alloy.

Leidenfrost effect | Engineers Edge | www.engineersedge.com

Also, this is worth Noting....

"For example, for saturated water-copper interface, the Leidenfrost temperature is 257 °C (495 °F). The Leidenfrost temperatures for glycerol and common alcohols are significantly smaller due to their lower surface tension values (density and viscosity differences are also contributing factors.)"

Leidenfrost effect - Wikipedia

I think the leidenfrost effect is a bit of a red herring. Not that it might not be occurring in some situations, but the important point being that between the boiling point and the leidenfrost point, changes in temperature effect the rate of vaporization, not the temperature of vaporization.

 

[Lessifer]

I meant to copy this part, but a quote of a quote...

Set preheat to 300F which is slightly below the boiling point, then higher post pre-heat power just speeds up the time to vapor (just like boiling water on High vs Medium... if what you care about is the steam) it doesn't matter until it starts boiling.

 

[LoriP1702]

Some of what i'm referring to is new to me. I put open source firmware on a Pico that's telling me what's happening real time and how it's different from my settings. I'm finding this very useful. It's not so hard. You get a Pico or VTC mini ($25-40), add Arctic fox fiirmware and configure it for the real time feedback then put on an atomizer using temp control wire and see what temps and energy give what results. But that's usually too much for a beginner just trying too quit smoking. My recommend is start with a setup that's optimized for 10 watts, learn how to vape, get off cigarettes, read and read and read some more--instead of throwing money at things. If you want to understand all this stuff we're talking about give it time and you will but you don't need any of it to stop smoking by vaping.

Thanks! I'm sure this info will help!!

I vape like Robin. KFL/ProVari - 1.4 or 1.5 ohm, 3.4v, I used a laser temp gun on my open coil.
Got it as hot as I possibly could, far exceeding how I would normally vape, and the highest reading I could get was 185F.

My RM2, on my Reosmod, 1.4 ohm coil, whatever volts that pushes, my reading with the coil wicked, and juice, was 75F.
Not sure that's a very accurate way to check how I'm vaping, but I'm hoping that I'm in the "ok" range.

I've no desire to sub-ohm, and really don't want to have to learn more - ETA - (a whole new way)...I'm *well stocked up* for doomsday, and hoping it'll all be okay.
I'm okay with a little risk. (Life in general is risky. )
I think we fool ourselves if we think there won't be any risk, but I'm all for reducing it even more if possible.

I applaud the in depth conversation here, even if it's way over my head. I appreciate those who are working together, picking each others brains, so to speak, regarding the topic.
I can try to learn by reading here, but I can't add to the information shared.

I still think/hope that, with maybe a few exceptions, most methods of vaping are still much safer (overall) than smoking.

I just don't want a new person who might be reading this to lose hope.

 

[mikepetro]

I dont think there is any doubt that vaping, no matter how, is safer than smoking.

 

[Rossum]

I would like to see a Mod where you could put a loop of straight wire, of some standard length like 100mm or so, and then the mod automatically calculate the TCR for that wire.

How is the mod going to supposed to calculate TCR without some external reference/measurement for how hot the wire actually gets?

 

[homeuser6]

i'm disappointed more of our resident scientists haven't aimed ir devices at their coils. some empirical evidence could be useful here.

 

[mikepetro]

How is the mod going to supposed to calculate TCR without some external reference/measurement for how hot the wire actually gets?

Good question. Still would like to see it. I bet some brainiac could figure it out. Maybe have a thermistor in the mod and you to thread the wire through it.

 

[Lessifer]

So, I'm on page 42. Much of this is way over my head, but I'm glad for the information, and will continue to try to catch up over the course of this weekend.

Someone who has been reading this thread pm'd me asking what top device they should use now for say ego devices.

I mean, in your opinions, what would be best to recommend for those just starting, or those who aren't comfortable with the more advanced mods, and those who haven't built coils??

My apologies in advance if this is addressed in the section I haven't gotten to yet.

ego toppers are probably somewhat limited now, I don't even know what's currently available. So, if they don't want to change to a different mod, and they want to stick with the ego/clearo form, I'd say the best bet would be to look for something with the most wire mass, like a dual coil, and bottom coil(as opposed to top like a CE4), and if possible something with adjustable airflow.

 

[mikepetro]

i'm disappointed more of our resident scientists haven't aimed ir devices at their coils. some empirical evidence could be useful here.

Not a scientist, but I have and all that tells us is coil temp. It doesnt tell us juice temp, and the assumption is that the coil gets hotter than the juice.

 

[Lessifer]

I would like to see a Mod where you could put a loop of straight wire, of some standard length like 100mm or so, and then the mod automatically calculate the TCR for that wire.

Then you'd be relying on people cutting an accurate length of 100mm.

 

[Rossum]

Good question. Still would like to see it. I bet some brainiac could figure it out. Maybe have a thermistor in the mod and you to thread the wire through it.

Yeah, that would be doable. Wrap a test coil around a glass-encapsulated thermistor and have the board read the actual temperature of the coil to determine the TCR.

But in the end, is that really any better for our purposes than the cotton browning test?