New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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That's cool, basically this firmware is allowing a Pico board to function like a dna. It is very odd though that it isn't hitting above 300F, could be due to a low set wattage, or preheat, or wicking, or maybe TFR range for the material. You can do TFR range with that firmware like a dna csv file yes?
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This thread is founded on the premise that low watts tootle puffers might be reaching 470 degrees and endangering their health for that reason. So I set my mod to a typical tootle puffer power, 11 watts,and abused the crap out of the coil and the temp stabilized below 300 degrees, 170 degrees below the threshold claimed to be hazardous. Anybody in this discussion can repeat my experiment. You don't need a grant from the National Science Foundation.
That's what I thought. I have a hard enough time understanding this thread as it is, but I did manage to do my own experiments on my type of vaping and was well under threshold of 470F.
Since starting with temp control I believed my sweet spot was 400 F max and 30 max watts. Now that I can see the max temp and max watts for each puff it's apparent that my true sweet spot is 260 degrees and 15-20 watts. The new firmware gives me the feedback needed and this thread ...... me off enough to fiddle with settings.
I believe science is corrupted by too much government money. The only government sponsored science I truely enjoy following are astronomy and planatary. That migtht be because there are no voters on Pluto.
I think the key thing is that we "assume" a lot of things. We do know, from tests, that 470F is a bad temperature for a PG/VG mix. We do now, from a large pool of collected data, that it is possible to exceed that magic temperature under "normal" vaping conditions. Beyond that, we actually know nothing, yet, so we "assume". Remember what "assume" can do.
You better define "normal vaping conditions" before you make that claim. Nobody vapes the contraption those California guys built for the purpose of producing toxins. My experiment satisfies me that if I vape my 1.4 ohm coil at 11 watts I'm coming no where close to 470 degrees unless I let the liquid dry up and if i set a temperature limit well below 470 then i won't hit that temperature unless the cotton is so dry it catches fire.
I don't switch them a lot but when I do its just flip through and find material, I leave all of them the same and just use max wattage to regulate...
like this^ it's 100x simpler and I notice no major difference
Hey, wadda ya know, tc works. If the wattage had been turned up high enough to reach the 400° temp setting the mod would have raised the wattage higher to maintain the temp. Probably would have needed a few watts higher.
In true vaping conditions ( with airflow) the wattage would have to be much higher (if it was set higher to begin with)
Example: My dna75 with an aromamizer is set to 75w and 400°f. When I fire it with no airflow it maintains 400° at 20w. When I vape it (with airflow) while looking in a mirror it shows 400° at 60w average (varying between 56w and 62w).
I always run my tc at a higher wattage than necessary to maintain my set temp and let the mod throttle the wattage as needed. It's smarter and thinks faster than I do
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Just the fact that several folks in here are benchmarking their rigs is the reason I posted this thread. Only maybe 15% of vapers are regularly vaping in the questionable zone. But how do you know if you dont benchmark? There have been people in here whose spouses still use CE4s, and other top coil designs, for example.
You dont know what you dont measure. Knowing is good. Temperature matters...
You dont know what you dont measure. Knowing is good. Temperature matters...
So it would be safe to "assume" that my 1.8 ohm coil @ 6 watts (3.3v) is very safe. Provided that the wick is kept wet.
We figured out what dry hits feel/taste like way back in the CE4 days, and I don't think anyone likes going there regardless of what their vape style is.
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However this thread has already made me make one simple adjustment.
My RDA holds 7 drops of liquid. @ 3 hits/drop that = 21 hits, so now I drip when it will only need 5 drops ... after 15 hits. This just gives me a little more wiggle room before any chance of a dry hit.
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This is not about dry hits, nor did the test simulate dry hits.
This is about temperature: at higher temps, that are within the range that some people intentionally vape at, even on TC devices, they claim there are nasty things coming out of VG.
I have vaped at 500 before, and it wasnt a nasty burnt hit. Now, it was also a 50/50 mix, and had flavorings, so I have no clue if nasties got involved. My point is the range being discussed is a realistic range that "some" are vaping at.
It is all part of everyone's personal risk analysis. If data points to me reducing my vape by 20 degrees and thereby getting less nasties, for me, it is worth a look. I can easily build a coil that will give me just as satisfying a vape at that lower temp. Change my wire gauge, use a different diameter coil, different # of warps etc, whatever. If I know a target I can build a coil to match it. I can do this because I can measure the temperature on my mod.
This is about temperature: at higher temps, that are within the range that some people intentionally vape at, even on TC devices, they claim there are nasty things coming out of VG.
I have vaped at 500 before, and it wasnt a nasty burnt hit. Now, it was also a 50/50 mix, and had flavorings, so I have no clue if nasties got involved. My point is the range being discussed is a realistic range that "some" are vaping at.
It is all part of everyone's personal risk analysis. If data points to me reducing my vape by 20 degrees and thereby getting less nasties, for me, it is worth a look. I can easily build a coil that will give me just as satisfying a vape at that lower temp. Change my wire gauge, use a different diameter coil, different # of warps etc, whatever. If I know a target I can build a coil to match it. I can do this because I can measure the temperature on my mod.
Choosing words carefully, it's likely you stay far far below 470 F unless you let the coil dry out. I wish there was a Nautilus bvc coil head with temp control wire. That would be a more precise test. I have a Nautilus mini and some spent coil heads but don't have the patience too attempt to rebuild one with stainless wire. Vapers operating tanks at very low watts don't need temp control. But if the medical research and public health establishments are determined to endlessly mislead people may be tootle puffers need temp control to reassure themselves they are vaping at safe temperatures.
I would still offer this caveat. We don't KNOW the temperatures we reach with consumer vape stuff in temp control mode adequately reflect the same temperature as used in that chamber study. Choosing 470F, or any other number at this point is, IMHO, premature. When those results are gathered (and not all that hard to do modeling prior work with actual attys), we'll know if the correlation matches, or if in reality it's higher or lower than what was reported in the chamber study. As someone who never goes above 450F in TC, I'll stick with that until proven otherwise. Besides, I can't tolerate a vape any hotter than that anyway.
The premise of this thread was to examine the possibility that even cautious low watt vapers may be operating their mods at temperatures at or above 470 degrees and this presents a health risk for them. Tootle puffers are specifically mentioned in the thread title as being at risk. Bah humbug. My test satisfies me that my brother, vaping at 11 watts won't produce coil temperatures above 300 degrees even if he abuses the coil. These brilliant scientists in California need to explain my results. The only explanation for their results is they are a pile of...
The premise holds, even with all the naysayers.
Someone running an Ego at 5v with a CE4 or other poorly designed atty could be reaching this questionable zone.
You appear confident that you are not, you are just one person with one situation.
Bottom line, if you dont benchmark your setup against temperature then you dont really know. You can extrapolate and guess, and if that is good enough for you, then by all means do what you are comfortable with.
Heck, I know plenty of people still using Evods, Protanks, and they didnt fair well even in KK's study. There are lots of companies out there catering to the ignorant newbies, and selling them a VV ego with an Evod on top for $60.
Someone running an Ego at 5v with a CE4 or other poorly designed atty could be reaching this questionable zone.
You appear confident that you are not, you are just one person with one situation.
Bottom line, if you dont benchmark your setup against temperature then you dont really know. You can extrapolate and guess, and if that is good enough for you, then by all means do what you are comfortable with.
Heck, I know plenty of people still using Evods, Protanks, and they didnt fair well even in KK's study. There are lots of companies out there catering to the ignorant newbies, and selling them a VV ego with an Evod on top for $60.
If it such a kit does for them what it did for me back in December of 2013, which was to convince me that I might just be able to stop smoking via vaping, then it's priceless.
I know you did this test in your RDA, but what metal did you use and what coil (simple spaced, number wraps)?
I have a bunch of Protank 2's that I use with Spinners for out and about. Generally around 1.7 ohms at 3.8 V with lots of air from the airflow controller. I've ordered some SS 316L wire and I'll try them with that on a Pico and see if I can get any useful information. From what I've read here those tiny 30g coils might not have enough metal mass to give good results with 316 wire. I also have Nautilus, KFL and Lemo tanks. The experiment should work better with those, although the Nautilus coils are also rather small.
Maybe I can find a reassuring way to extrapolate from results from the other tanks back to the PT. I'm not sure what effect the tank has on the temp the coil reaches.
Intuition tells me that the way I use my PT's should be well inside the safe zone, if there even is a danger zone. But like you said, measurements would be more convincing than my intuition.
I've made a couple of changes to the way I vape based on this thread. I turned down the power to the lowest level where I get a decent vape, which is not much lower than I had been using previously. And I've been rewicking sooner. That's another bit of intuition. If a coil is covered in crud, that might act as insulation from the cooling effect of the juice and let the coil get hotter. Actually that's another thing that could be tested quite easily. Let a coil get good and gunked up and see it gets hotter with the same power input.
edit: and I don't chain vape on the same tank.
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