New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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It had a wet wick in it. I just couldnt read the wick separate from the coil, the camera resolution wasnt high enough to get that granular.
I imagine the wick temp can get very close to the coil temp. It doesn't seem to me to matter which way the liquid in a wick is being converted to vapor/aerosol or whether the leidenfrost effect is at work in our attys, the vapor is being produced everywhere that wick touches wire, that includes the inside of the coil too. So where does that hot vapor entering inside the coil go? Some of it comes out through the wick and crevices sure, but I've got to think that with the absence of airflow and only incoming juice to cool things down that the wick temp is pretty high. Is it just as hot as the coil? I don't know. Anyone have a high precision thermocouple I can borrow?
I have a stand alone ohm meter for atomizers. I use that as the benchmark. i did a test where i tooks some puffs, warmed up the coil then switched it to the ohm meter to see how fast the ohm's return to room temperature. Well mine do that very rapidly. may be that's because they are low mass and fresh liquid is percolating through the coil and cooling them, which is what the liquid is supposed to do. May be how hot the liquid gets depends on how much time it spends absorbing heat from the coil. The faster it is carried away the lower it's temperature? I would be surpriised if at least a tiny amount of liquid was converted to bad stuff at most any coil temperature but would also expect the amount is trivial until you create a frankenstien atomizer for the purpose of producing toxins. But hopefully more work will be done on this. At the moment I'm enjoying my vape at max 260 F and typical power of 15-20 watts. I bet somebody in Callifornia wants to prove that's hideously dangerous too.
Here's my question. I have a Smok Stick V8 which I use with the included Baby Beast Tank and the higher ohm 0.25 coils. Aside from a tendency to dry hit when chain vaping, I've found the mod to produce a very cool vape when the air flow is all the way open. Now, obviously my saying it is a cool vape does not equate to an actual figure of temperature but I am finding it quite hard to believe that the thing is hitting anywhere near 470*. In fact, I'm finding it quite hard to believe the thing is hitting much north of 400* even when fully charged and even if I installed the 0.15 ohm coil. Am I wrong? It just seems to me the vast majority of mods are not going to come anywhere close to the 470* mark. Perhaps somebody taking 250 watt vapes on a tiny coil but the regular prebuilt mods that most of us are using -- are they really getting that hot?
temp gun can't resolve that either, but in my setup the wick and juice have waaay more mass than the wire. my builds will never reach 300f leave alone 470 danger. my son uses large claptons and my taste agrees with the temp gun they are hotter. i'm thinking relative mass here and this might be why heat flux does not work well for me. too hot will happen long before a dry hit.
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Time for another OOMA theory. Efficiency, as far as we are concerned, has to do with vaporizing liquid as quickly as possible. The leidenfrost effect is inefficient for our purposes as the bulk of the liquid vaporizes slowly due to the vapor cushion between heat source and liquid. So, we want the coil temp to be between the boiling point and the leidenfrost point. Also, if the leidenfrost effect keeps the liquid away from the coil, what happens to the wick that is still in physical contact?
I noticed that the density of the vapor has more influence on my perception of warmth than the indicated coil temperature. The resistance of your coil is probably lower than mine because you have a lot more wire to vaporize more liquid for bigger clouds. it could turn out that the cloud chasers have, or could have, lower temp coils than the tootle puffers because if they were the same the higher density of vapor would make them uncomfortably hot. If you must know the wire temperature of your setup you may have to make a TC emulation and compare. Another possibility is use temp controlled builds so you can see what coil temps you are running. that's where i am as of a few days ago and thanks to some open source firmware that runs on my pico.
RCP, here's my take on it. The actual vapor temperature CAN be quite high, way higher than might be expected. The vapor is mixed and cooled with ambient air inside the atomizer and on the way up the chimney. I would suspect, and keep in mind I'm not an engineer, physicist, scientist or anything else, that the actual vapor temperature is far higher than we could be able to stand were it not cooled, sufficiently, by the ambient air around us moving through the atomizer. This is why, in my view, hot or dry hits are NOT the definitive indicator that nastiness is being produced. We may only be aware of it when it gets really bad.
My recommendations for beginners--don't sweat it. Just switch to vaping. Vaping is much better for you than smoking, period. But choose a "safe(er)" (3rd generation) setup that also gives you options to transition (or just try) TC--with either premade or rebuildable coils.
Get a simple TC box mod: eVic VTC mini, Wismec Presa 75W or Pico are all decent choices and can be had for ~30 bucks if you look around for sales and deals. They all work fine in both power and TC modes.
The most versatile tank on the market is Subtank mini V2. It's not exactly a beginners atty, but it gives you most options. It comes with all kinds of coils, including kanthal, nichrome, Ti, and ss coils (for TC vaping); and a simple RBA coil. It even takes Aspire BVC and BDC (dual) (non-Natilus) coils. Just be VERY careful when ordering SSOCC coils! Kanger screwed up the naming of those coils royally, and most of those SS coils have a ss casing, NOT WIRE. If you want ss wire (for TC) you need to find the newer CLOCC 136L coils!
$12.53 Authentic KangerTech CLOCC 316L Stainless Steel Coil Heads (5-Pack) 5-pack - 0.5ohm / at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping
Less versatile but much more user friendly is the Eleaf GS Air Tank series. Get the old 1.5Ω dual coils--they work great out of the box and the load (wattage, power) is split between two coils, so if you apply 10 watts, each coil only gets 5 watts. They are really nice. The tanks come in different sizes and Eleaf also offers Ti and Ni TC coils.
I also love and use eGo One tanks--I like the megas (4.5 ml), V1 or V2, both good. Single coils, both TC (Ni and Ti) and non-TC, very easy and dependable. I recommend you throw away the included CL coils (they are garbage) and buy CLR (rebuidable) coils. Those come in two resistances (1Ω and .5Ω) and can be used out of the box and later rebuilt with any wire you want (if desired--they are ridiculously easy to rebuild).
Good luck!
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if there was tc wire with the same mass per resistance i would try tc just to prove a point. it is not relevant to my vape style.
Thank you!! That's great info!!My recommendations for beginners--don't sweat it. Just switch to vaping. Vaping is much better for you than smoking, period. But choose a "safe(er)" (3rd generation) setup that also gives you options to transition (or just try) TC--with either premade or rebuildable coils.
Get a simple TC box mod: eVic VTC mini, Wismec Presa 75W or Pico are all decent choices and can be had for ~30 bucks if you look around for sales and deals. They all work fine in both power and TC modes.
The most versatile tank on the market is Subtank mini V2. It's not exactly a beginners atty, but it gives you most options. It comes with all kinds of coils, including kanthal, nichrome, Ti, and ss coils (for TC vaping); and a simple RBA coil. It even takes Aspire BVC and BDC (dual) (non-Natilus) coils. Just be VERY careful when ordering SSOCC coils! Kanger screwed up the naming of those coils royally, and most of those SS coils have a ss casing, NOT WIRE. If you want ss wire (for TC) you need to find the newer CLOCC 136L coils!
$12.53 Authentic KangerTech CLOCC 316L Stainless Steel Coil Heads (5-Pack) 5-pack - 0.5ohm / at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping
Less versatile but much more user friendly is the Eleaf GS Air Tank series. Get the old 1.5Ω dual coils--they work great out of the box and the load (wattage, power) is split between two coils, so if you apply 10 watts, each coil only gets 5 watts. They are really nice. The tanks come in different sizes and Eleaf also offers Ti and Ni TC coils.
I also love and use eGo One tanks--I like the megas (4.5 ml), V1 or V2, both good. Single coils, both TC (Ni and Ti) and non-TC, very easy and dependable. I recommend you throw away the included CL coils (they are garbage) and buy CLR (rebuidable) coils. Those come in two resistances (1Ω and .5Ω) and can be used out of the box and later rebuilt with any wire you want (if desired--they are ridiculously easy to rebuild).
Good luck!
Alright well I threw a SS coil on my Isub tank and slapped it on a Innokin Cool Fire IV TC 100 -- went into temperature control and set a 440* vape at 60 watts. I actually find the vape quite a bit warmer than I've ever found my Stick V8 (again though, as others have said, there are other variables at play). That said, I think I can pretty safely conclude that most vapers are going to be more than happy with 450* and that most starter type setups are not going over the 450* range if you are vaping at reasonable wattages, at reasonable intervals, with a well soaked wick.
As a side note, after vaping in TC mode for a bit I actually ordered a bunch of SS coils and plan to continue to do so. The vape does seem more consistent and when I crank up to the 440* mark I can get some pretty enjoyable 2 second vapes which I much prefer to my usual 4-5 second inhales.
I think the most important question here that remains is whether the increase in these particular carcinogens are as dire as they sound. Obviously, the idea is to take in no carcinogens and so vaping at higher temperatures may not be optimal: but I have a hard time believing that the aggregate of long term high wattage vaping would be anywhere close to as dangerous as long term cigarette smoking.
As a side note, after vaping in TC mode for a bit I actually ordered a bunch of SS coils and plan to continue to do so. The vape does seem more consistent and when I crank up to the 440* mark I can get some pretty enjoyable 2 second vapes which I much prefer to my usual 4-5 second inhales.
I think the most important question here that remains is whether the increase in these particular carcinogens are as dire as they sound. Obviously, the idea is to take in no carcinogens and so vaping at higher temperatures may not be optimal: but I have a hard time believing that the aggregate of long term high wattage vaping would be anywhere close to as dangerous as long term cigarette smoking.
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Great thread and info... personally and this is just me, I don't pay much attention to the studies, I read them but go off of my personal experience which has been a complete transformation of my health in the last 6 to 7 years. I smoked 1.5 pad for over 30 years and cannot believe the difference in my health since vaping. It's been a night & day difference which has been truly amazing. I have been vaping mtl the whole time in wattages from 15 to 25, from genesis rebuildables to now rebuildable rta's in the 1 ohm range and never really go over a 2 second pull and usually wait about 10 seconds before a consecutive pull. I also use 26g kanthal and don't use TC.. When reading through these pages I was a bit curious as to my vaping temperature, so I tried to measure, I took off my top cap to a kayfun mini v3 shortly after a vape and looked how saturated my wick & coil was, I then held an instant read thermometer to the center of the coil and fired it for 2 seconds (exactly the lenght when I vape) and got a max reading of 210 degrees. After 10 seconds the coil temp went down to 110 degrees , I then re saturated to a visual in which I estimated the wick and coil looked like when I first opened it up. I then fired it again and took another reading, I did this numerous times and never went over 235 degrees. Now I know this is nothing official , but I do believe these Temps are fairly accurate and if anything lower, because I did this with no airflow what so ever. Anyways I don't want anybody to get laxed because of what I did, I'm not stating this to say or fault any of the info in this new study , I was just curious in my particular build and know that even my particular results might be flawed and that everyone has different builds and vaping styles.
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It's just Funny to watch all the Debates as to why this Should do that. And why that Shouldn't do this.
At some point, it seems, the Rubber should Meet the Road.
And as a Member once said in a Pre-Deeming thread... "Enough with the Talk. It's Time for some Action!".
LOL
True, the most efficient phase of heating would be at critical heat flux where most all of the heat generated by the coil is transferred into the liquid. This phase is experienced early in the heat cycle on its way to the leidenfrost phase where heat flux is at it's minimum.
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