New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I find that difficult to reconcile with my testing using a infrared camera. The camera told me that the coil was pretty darn close to the displayed by multiple different dna boards.
These were all with saturated coils and generating vapor.
I have a couple dozen of these photos. I was doing the tests at the time to see how close the DNA was to what I measured.
Now were talking, do you know the resolution of your camera, eg, can it be accurate at a small area like a coil? Now where we get into trouble using IR cameras and pyrometers is the emissivity setting, depending on where you have it set compared to the actual emissivity of the target, your temperatures can be way off. I see your pics you have it set to 0.65. For stainless steel for example, Optotherm emissivity tables give:
Stainless Steel
Polished
0.10 - 0.15
Oxidized
0.45 - 0.95
That's a huge range, which would result in a corresponding wide range of temperature indications. if I were a betting man, and I am, I would dry burn to oxidize the surface, and shoot the coil at 0.95. On the other hand, if your readings are comparable to DNA boards (which from what I've read are top of the line for TC ), you have some argument for your setting, but not a lot
If 100°F were a high enough temperature then you would need zero watts on a hot summer day, no?
No wonder I get such Good Battery life in my Mods when I go on trips to 29 Palms in August.
Here is a picture of the coil. I know the coil was well saturated because I did these tests myself.
You call it propaganda, I am remaining objective to the possibility there may be something to it.
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Yeah, I read up and played with the emissivity. The target was grungy NI200.Now were talking, do you know the resolution of your camera, eg, can it be accurate at a small area like a coil? Now where we get into trouble using IR cameras and pyrometers is the emissivity setting, depending on where you have it set compared to the actual emissivity of the target, your temperatures can be way off. I see your pics you have it set to 0.65. For stainless steel for example, Optotherm emissivity tables give:
Stainless Steel
Polished
0.10 - 0.15
Oxidized
0.45 - 0.95
That's a huge range, which would result in a corresponding wide range of temperature indications. if I were a betting man, and I am, I would dry burn to oxidize the surface, and shoot the coil at 0.95. On the other hand, if your readings are comparable to DNA boards (which from what I've read are top of the line for TC ), you have some argument for your setting, but not a lot
I've used IR Pyrometers and Cameras both. Only a few weeks ago I was shooting a motor painted glossy white, the readings seemed high, so I used a contact TC probe, and the pyrometer was off 50 deg. However trying to use a thermocouple on a coil, it would have to be tiny wire, since it would act as a heat sink. Still I would love to see that done! Maybe something like this 30 AWG hypodermic probe:
Hypodermic and Mini Hypodermic Probes, Model Numbers, HYP0, HYP1, HYP2, HYP3, HYP4, Thermocouple and RTD Microtemp Sensors
I'm curious as to what lead you to set your emissivity to 0.65 though.
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I know on a DNA board resistance is resolved to 3 places. Can I swear to the accuracy of that resolution? Not sure. I can say the behavior in operation seems to be consistent with the ability to reproducibly track the change in resistance.
Mostly I use it for shooting panels and switchgear. Mainly after the pros (with their $40k cameras) do an IR survey, and we go to fix a hotspot, I will do before and after shots to ensure we got it.
That's where IR really pays off, we do that at work as well. In electrical panels and switchgear, absolute accuracy isn't as important as showing the hot spots that indicate a loose connection, etc. Nice to see someone who knows the technology here!
To be honest, that was a couple years ago (DNA40 release) and I dont remember. I remember considering emissivity, as it is always a consideration (blacks, shiny, etc), I remember doing some reading, and that was just where I landed.
Yeah... Resolving and Accuracy are not necessary the same thing.
And when you get down on the Very Small Levels of Ohms compared to Large (Relatively) values of Degrees F, Calculations can suffer.
No problem doing the Calculations to 8 Decimal Places. That's a piece of Cake. But Temperatures based on 0.0X (accurate) Ohms can be another Issue.
But what more has to be accomplished besides staying below 470 F? I fired my usual builld for 20 seconds at 30 watts and couldn't come close. May be most people's coils are running a lot cooler than they think. Just because you set a temp limit of, say, 450 degrees doesn't mean a particular puff comes close to that. I'm finding it's only easy to hit a higher temp limit when the wick is starting to get dry. When that happens in a tank in power mode the next puff is dry.
On account of this thread I juiced up my Nautilus mini and vaped it for the first time in 2 years. (It's so damn tall.) If it's all i had I would keep using it. I'm sure I'd use less juice and my battery would last longer. Even though the heat fllux is the same between the 1.8 ohm kanthal at 10 watts and my 1.38 ohm stainless build at 30 watts the 30 watt puff seems warmer. At any rate, my judgement is my brother tootling along at 11 watts is not bumping into 470 F and neither am I.
On account of this thread I juiced up my Nautilus mini and vaped it for the first time in 2 years. (It's so damn tall.) If it's all i had I would keep using it. I'm sure I'd use less juice and my battery would last longer. Even though the heat fllux is the same between the 1.8 ohm kanthal at 10 watts and my 1.38 ohm stainless build at 30 watts the 30 watt puff seems warmer. At any rate, my judgement is my brother tootling along at 11 watts is not bumping into 470 F and neither am I.
I tried a thermocouple at various points inside the coil, and fed the wire through an airhole in the atty. I never got repeatable results though, at least not anything I would hang my name on.
Man you definitely get an A for effort in doing these measurements, nothing like science. I just found this guy on youtube who used a tiny thermocouple to measure coil temperature while vaping on a Carvella drip tank, he got from 200 C (392 F) with a 1.1 ohm coil at around 10W I think, using the same drip tank on an unregulated mod with a freshly charged battery he got 250 C (482 F).
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I would be interested to know just how accurate the resistance readings on on any of the TC mods are.
I have spent the last decade or so calibrating test equipment, I can't think of many bits of kit that are able to accurately measure low resistance quickly (multiple times a second) and accurately (to within 0.001 ohms) None of them would come in at the price point of even the high end TC boards. If Evolve or any of the other manufacturers have cracked it then they should move into selling test equipment when the FDA closes them down.....
I have spent the last decade or so calibrating test equipment, I can't think of many bits of kit that are able to accurately measure low resistance quickly (multiple times a second) and accurately (to within 0.001 ohms) None of them would come in at the price point of even the high end TC boards. If Evolve or any of the other manufacturers have cracked it then they should move into selling test equipment when the FDA closes them down.....
So long as the deviation is consistent across the range, the absolute accuracy isn't a limiting factor in performance. Of course, that does mean whatever offset required still allows you to be reasonably confident in the temperatures being both produced and reported.
I'm pretty sure they've solved the high frequency part, a fast A/D conversion is pretty cheap, at what accuracy that fast measurement is, is a good question.
That is hard to believe. ... while I only used a instant read thermometer, my particular coil ( 1 ohm, 26g wire @20ish watts) saturated with rayon was reading between 200 and 230 ish degrees single coil in power mode
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Are we to assume from the studies that the vapor hits higher than 470f and is instantly cooled by the air flow before it hits our lips and in our mouth? If I use my Narda RDA (clone, could not find the original, dont hate plz) my mouth and tougue remain cool. The distance between my mouth and the coil is less than 1cm. At 31watts 4.2 volts .57 ohms. My vapor is cool.
So either it has hit the higher 470f
and has been instantly cooled due to the tiny air flow it has or its not hitting high temps. Which is it and why is it so hard for scientist to accuratly test these things with all the equipment they have?? Are they really looking for the truth? It seems like the only people that are looking for the truth are people in this thread with a serious lack of equipment and a lab.... (and me personally, a Science degree)Has anyone ever opened a commercial convection oven at 425f? Your whole face feels that blast of heat from over foot away!??
Yes, its larger, but if that fan in the convection oven was blowing the temp of my vapor I would think that it was broken.Just another observation.
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