New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I still think the presence of boiling is only indicating the temperature of the water. The coil can be higher simply because the water is absorbing energy from it to reach the boiling point. It is an indicator of the temperature needed for a coil to produce boiling water. The cotton singe test may be a more accurate indicator because the cotton doesn't absorb as much heat from the coil to reach its singe temperature.
Maybe I'm over thinking this whole thing, beats me. Where's a qualified physicist/engineer?
Maybe I'm over thinking this whole thing, beats me. Where's a qualified physicist/engineer?
My question still stands, though. How do you know, for certain, that the coil is only at 100C and not at 130C or somewhere else above the 100C needed to produce boiling? The heat sink effect of the water reaching boiling point will require a higher coil temperature. Just how much higher is a question that needs an answer and is probably loaded with variables like wire size and coil size to think of just a couple.
Oh the womper room, I have seen that thread but never knew. ThanksBeen around for awhile, though I doubt it exists outside this board. A few of us noticed we didn't quite belong in either the tootlepuffer or cloud chaser group, so we made our ownMid range wattage, usually accompanied by somewhat higher nic, and for some of us less liquid consumption. Not that it really matter
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Your assumption would be correct, but there's an additional aspect here that still bothers me (what else is new?). This all still comes back to when we measure temperature relying on the TCR like in a thermometer, is that the temperature of the wire or the liquid? If we think about a resistance thermometer which this whole process of TC is relying upon, what happens with the wire is used both as an RTD AND the heating element?
Let's take a temperature probe controlled electric range. You put a pot of water on the element and allow the RTD to regulate the current going to the electric heating element. You use a high setting which you set, and the water heats faster. Once the water begins to boil, you can turn the power/heat source down to just maintain the water at boiling. No reason to keep it at a roiling boil to maintain that temp. So that's when the RTD, noting the water has reached 100C will reduce current to the heating coil (obviously through some controller). If the temperature drop to 99C, the RTD will raise the current. So my question is can one coil do both, and what does the reported temperature represent? Sorta the same question as Ken's.
path of least resistance.... While water can conduct electricity its not the path of least resistance so it won't just hop around the coil through the water
The display on your mod will indicate what temperature it THINKS your wire is. The point here is to dial in your TCR so that you get as close to 212F/100C as you can.
The TCR setting can be further verified with the "cotton singe test".
As long as your wick/coil is remains wet AND the power is not set to high the temperature rise will stop at the boiling point and stay there. The indication is NOT the formation of steam but rather the stop (or flat spot) of the temperature of the coil rising.
I've understood for a while that it's not watts or volts or ohms that make vapor but heat. The measurement for heat is temperature. I doubt that 470 F coil temp is a magic number because there are additional variables that influence the temperature of the liquid.
I went looking for a deeper understanding of the process we are trying to influence. So far here's what I have. We aren't boiling the liquid. We are causing evaporation. All the molecules in the liquid are moving randomly at different velocities. Molecules near the surface of the liquid with sufficient velocity may break free of the liquid and either be drawn back (gravity?) or float away. It may be the heat we feel is the velocity of the molecules being absorbed by our bodies (friction?). We want to evaporate the liquid and trigger only mechanical forces. If some of the liquid molecules get too much velocity that might break chemical bonds and create new substances, some of which are toxic to us. May be somebody here remembers their physics and chemistry classes better than me.
The reason we can make vapor at reletively low coil temperatures is for the same reasons water evaporates at low temperatures. But e liquid is higher viscosity than water so the molecules need more velocity to break free of the liquid. We only get noticable evaporation when we heat the liquid to above room temperature.
If we could somehow define all these variables mathematically we could predict what setups trigger chemical forces and not just the mechanical ones. If the concerning chemical reactions can always be tasted we don't need much math and science to stay out of trouble.
I went looking for a deeper understanding of the process we are trying to influence. So far here's what I have. We aren't boiling the liquid. We are causing evaporation. All the molecules in the liquid are moving randomly at different velocities. Molecules near the surface of the liquid with sufficient velocity may break free of the liquid and either be drawn back (gravity?) or float away. It may be the heat we feel is the velocity of the molecules being absorbed by our bodies (friction?). We want to evaporate the liquid and trigger only mechanical forces. If some of the liquid molecules get too much velocity that might break chemical bonds and create new substances, some of which are toxic to us. May be somebody here remembers their physics and chemistry classes better than me.
The reason we can make vapor at reletively low coil temperatures is for the same reasons water evaporates at low temperatures. But e liquid is higher viscosity than water so the molecules need more velocity to break free of the liquid. We only get noticable evaporation when we heat the liquid to above room temperature.
If we could somehow define all these variables mathematically we could predict what setups trigger chemical forces and not just the mechanical ones. If the concerning chemical reactions can always be tasted we don't need much math and science to stay out of trouble.
The measurement for heat is energy. Temperature is proportional to the average kinetic energy of the particles in a system. The force dominating molecular and intermolecular dynamics is the electromagnetic.
As we know the vapor we inhale is an aerosol, liquid suspended in gas. Most of the gas is air. Some of the gas consists of molecules created during the process and other molecules released from the eliquid during the process. Released chemicals that still might be gas when inhaling are predomindently water, but I'm ignorant when it comes to flavorings here. I'm very doubtful any VG or PG gets to our mouths as gas. So, how about those tiny suspended liquid particles? Some of those are ejected from the coil-wick as liquid. They join the colloid at a lower temperatures. Some molecules, mostly carrier liquid, do briefly turn to gas. Rapidly expanding gases provide the mechanism for ejecting the liquid particles. These gas molecules condense by cooling a bit, then bumping into each other and the suspended liquid particles.
Edit for an additional thought: For the most part, the molecules turned to gas will be forced to move back into the wick. This will provide rapid cooling as well as a confined space. Both of which may reduce or eliminate the conditions needed for pyrolytic reactions.
As we know the vapor we inhale is an aerosol, liquid suspended in gas. Most of the gas is air. Some of the gas consists of molecules created during the process and other molecules released from the eliquid during the process. Released chemicals that still might be gas when inhaling are predomindently water, but I'm ignorant when it comes to flavorings here. I'm very doubtful any VG or PG gets to our mouths as gas. So, how about those tiny suspended liquid particles? Some of those are ejected from the coil-wick as liquid. They join the colloid at a lower temperatures. Some molecules, mostly carrier liquid, do briefly turn to gas. Rapidly expanding gases provide the mechanism for ejecting the liquid particles. These gas molecules condense by cooling a bit, then bumping into each other and the suspended liquid particles.
Edit for an additional thought: For the most part, the molecules turned to gas will be forced to move back into the wick. This will provide rapid cooling as well as a confined space. Both of which may reduce or eliminate the conditions needed for pyrolytic reactions.
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Thank you.
I'm not clear on the difference between the liquid as the original molecules more spread out and gas. Most of the examples of evaporation I read about involved water which is a very very tough material meaning hard to degrade. When water evaporates there's no chemistry, just mechanical forces, right? Presumably we can evaporate e liquid at low enough temperatures so there is little or no chemical changes? Otherwise the bad stuff would show up under all conditions.
Edit, so you are saying the gas is mostly air. okay
And it is that very temperature that we're all wondering about of can you get enough of a vape at a temperature low enough to not cause thermal breakdown. That means replicating the temperatures the Wang study appears to find results in thermal degradation and see if they match up to what we can accomplish with a temp controlled board, as well as the question of can you translate this into wattage mode for folks not using temp control. If it holds up that 400F as measured and controlled by current generation boards that there is no thermal breakdown but there is at 500F, then we have a basis for arguing 400F (or 450F or whatever it turns out to be) is "better for you".
The final step, which I think is extremely important, is will a vape at a safe temp be satisfying? If it's not, we've got a problem.
If you have not changed the tcr on the Pico before it is set to 120. Turn your device off. Push the fire button and the + button (same time) for 5 or so seconds and it will pop up for you to adjust. I would do the cotton burn test, but 120 tcr is off. It should be more like 98-100.
For SS316L...
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The temperature is also dependent on your wire type. I generally vape around 6-10W with a 1.8ohm 30AWG Kanthal A1. With a fresh battery in my mech squonker even at this low wattage the coil temp was above 470 degrees!
Thinner wires get hotter faster! different wire types heat up at different rates. It's not just about the power level applied.
Plus one on that, if you use Steam Engine, check out heat flux with different metals and gauges.
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