New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[sofarsogood]

And it is that very temperature that we're all wondering about of can you get enough of a vape at a temperature low enough to not cause thermal breakdown. That means replicating the temperatures the Wang study appears to find results in thermal degradation and see if they match up to what we can accomplish with a temp controlled board, as well as the question of can you translate this into wattage mode for folks not using temp control. If it holds up that 400F as measured and controlled by current generation boards that there is no thermal breakdown but there is at 500F, then we have a basis for arguing 400F (or 450F or whatever it turns out to be) is "better for you".

The final step, which I think is extremely important, is will a vape at a safe temp be satisfying? If it's not, we've got a problem.

I've had the recent experience of being able to see max watts and max temp after each puff. Depending on coil saturation my rda produces useful amounts of vapor at much lower coil temperatures than I would have predicted. I have gotten vapor comparable to my Nautilus mini at an indicated coil temperature of 210 F, far far below 470 F. I'm using 3 watts to get a saturated coil to 210 F and getting okay vapor. It's cool and tootle puffer amounts but vapable. The results i'm getting aren't going to be common knowledge. Who is playing with this? There could be more people besides me exlporing low temperature vaping to see what's repeatable. My hunch is tootle puffers are vaping at reletively low temps, lower than they might guess. I got out my Nautilus mini for the first time in 2 years last week. I'd forgotten it's a pleasant experience. I going to learn how to duplcate that with my rda so I can take a lot of puffs on inactive off days without the irritation of hotter denser vapor.

 

[PBody19]

And it is that very temperature that we're all wondering about of can you get enough of a vape at a temperature low enough to not cause thermal breakdown. That means replicating the temperatures the Wang study appears to find results in thermal degradation and see if they match up to what we can accomplish with a temp controlled board, as well as the question of can you translate this into wattage mode for folks not using temp control. If it holds up that 400F as measured and controlled by current generation boards that there is no thermal breakdown but there is at 500F, then we have a basis for arguing 400F (or 450F or whatever it turns out to be) is "better for you".

The final step, which I think is extremely important, is will a vape at a safe temp be satisfying? If it's not, we've got a problem.

Looking at this graph from the presentation, I think it's very likely that we haven't much to worry about. I say this with the understanding that this is the recorded temperatures of the coil, as best as the device is able to measure, not the vapor produced. As the vapor can only be as hot as the coil, and has a lot of reasons that it can be cooler, I think this graph is very promising in terms of confirming that vaping is not just healthier than smoking, but is also safe in general.

 

[corn flakes]

Plus one on that, if you use Steam Engine, check out heat flux with different metals and gauges.

I have put my numbers into steam engine. Just how does it translate. That's the part I have no idea about.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I have put my numbers into steam engine. Just how does it translate. That's the part I have no idea about.

I don't get real worked up about the absolute number of "heat flux" and I never change the Watt number because I don't really understand it. (I use the older version not the "updated version which doesn't meet my usage.) But, I know that I like a coil that heats up to a certain mV/mm(squared) and when I build, change metal or gauge then I shoot for the heat flux that I like. So, I tell myself that I don't use the number as an absolute correct value but rather as a reference, so, whatever error is there is always there and it is a consistent but reliable error. It is like my thermostat at home, I know it is wrong but it is consistently and reliably wrong.

 

[sofarsogood]

As the vapor can only be as hot as the coil,

The liquid can get hotter than the heat source depending on how long it is in contact with the heat source and how fast it can dump heat. A car left in the sun gets hotter than surrounding air because it can hold more heat. May be somebody here can express that more accurately than I just did.

 

[Domejunky]

My memory surely is not what it used to be.

I stand/sit corrected.

Isn't 242F the boiling point of wort? I work in Celsius so might off..

 

[NU_FTW]

Isn't 242F the boiling point of wort? I work in Celsius so might off..

what is wort

 

[Domejunky]

what is wort

Unfermented beer. The sugary liquid extracted from malt...

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

what is wort

Wort is...

The sweet infusion of malt and grains before fermentation. In beer and distilled malt liquor....lol
Think he's Vaping beer???

 

[NU_FTW]

Wort is...

The sweet infusion of malt and grains before fermentation. In beer and distilled malt liquor....lol
Think he's Vaping beer???

quota met, learned something new

 

[sofarsogood]

Where is it written that vapor has to be hot to be good? My list of priorities are throat hit, vapor texture, and a hint of flavor. Heat per se is not on the list even if it might be a means to an end. I think it's possible to get what I want at lower temps than I've been using and I bet the same is true for the cloud chasers. Vaping on my N mini for the first time in 2 years reminds me of what a pleasant experience it can be. Too bad the coils are so hard to rebuild.

 

[zoiDman]

The liquid can get hotter than the heat source depending on how long it is in contact with the heat source and how fast it can dump heat. ...

I think that Violates the 2nd Law of Thermal Dynamics.

In Lay Terms... Without an External Influence, Heat always flows from a Hot Object to a Cooler Object. When the 2 Objects reach the Same Temperature, a Thermal Equilibrium is reached. And No More Heat Transfer occurs.

 

[Verb]

Where is it written that vapor has to be hot to be good? My list of priorities are throat hit, vapor texture, and a hint of flavor. Heat per se is not on the list even if it might be a means to an end. I think it's possible to get what I want at lower temps than I've been using and I bet the same is true for the cloud chasers. Vaping on my N mini for the first time in 2 years reminds me of what a pleasant experience it can be. Too bad the coils are so hard to rebuild.

I like warmth for that hug from the inside feel. Good thing a warm vape has a lot more to do with distance from mouth to coil, density, and volume produced/unit time than it has to do with the maximum temperature the eliquid reaches. A large volume vape can warm the mouth, throat, and lungs due to a larger mass needing to be cooled without the need for a coil that runs hot.

 

[Verb]

The liquid can get hotter than the heat source depending on how long it is in contact with the heat source and how fast it can dump heat. A car left in the sun gets hotter than surrounding air because it can hold more heat. May be somebody here can express that more accurately than I just did.

Other way around. The coil can be at a temperature hotter than what the eliquid and vapor ever reaches.

 

[DaveP]

Zoidman wrote:
I think that Violates the 2nd Law of Thermal Dynamics.

In Lay Terms... Without an External Influence, Heat always flows from a Hot Object to a Cooler Object. When the 2 Objects reach the Same Temperature, a Thermal Equilibrium is reached. And No More Heat Transfer occurs.

Yep, and the cooling affect of air entering the system by drawing on the drip tip would lower the overall temperature. So, it has to be less than coil/wick temp unless you just press fire and hold it without introducing outside air.

 

[PBody19]

The liquid can get hotter than the heat source depending on how long it is in contact with the heat source and how fast it can dump heat. A car left in the sun gets hotter than surrounding air because it can hold more heat. May be somebody here can express that more accurately than I just did.

Not quite. The heat source in your scenario is the Sun, not the surrounding air. Surely the inside of the car is not hotter than the Sun.

 

[sofarsogood]

Yep, and the cooling affect of air entering the system by drawing on the drip tip would lower the overall temperature. So, it has to be less than coil/wick temp unless you just press fire and hold it without introducing outside air.

I don't want to labor this because the only point I wanted to make is that how the liquid gets to it's max temp is probably complicated. Here is an experiment where it appears something gets hotter than it's heat source. Physics - Focus: The Pot Gets Hotter than the Stove They had to go to space to make it happen.

I like warmth for that hug from the inside feel. Good thing a warm vape has a lot more to do with distance from mouth to coil, density, and volume produced/unit time than it has to do with the maximum temperature the eliquid reaches. A large volume vape can warm the mouth, throat, and lungs due to a larger mass needing to be cooled without the need for a coil that runs hot.

And I'm thinking if I make it a goal to reduce temperature but preserve the vape qualities I want it can probably be done.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't want to labor this because the only point I wanted to make is that how the liquid gets to it's max temp is probably complicated. Here is an experiment where it appears something gets hotter than it's heat source. Physics - Focus: The Pot Gets Hotter than the Stove They had to go to space to make it happen.

...

Well... I guess if I am ever Vaping Sulfur Hexafluoride while floating around on MIR, then that would be something to Consider.

 

[zoiDman]

Yep, and the cooling affect of air entering the system by drawing on the drip tip would lower the overall temperature. So, it has to be less than coil/wick temp unless you just press fire and hold it without introducing outside air.

The Heat Flow remains the Same, Hot => Cold. But now if I draw "Colder" air over a "Hotter" Coil, some of the Heat of the Coil will be transferred to the Air.

But an Argument could be made that the Heat Transfer would Not be the same for the Entire Coil. Because the Air does Not Flow over the Entire Coil uniformly.

 

[DPLongo22]

I am now officially afraid to make (even/just) soup.

Am I going to have to eat that absolutely disgusting "Viscious-what(EVER!)" stuff from here on in?

Carry on.