New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Here's some "theoretical" data we can compare against the actual measurements forthcoming.

I took the temps we have for the pure PG and VG boiling temps and interpolated temps from the mix ratios between them. I also did the same for our temps where nasties are formed from data posted here.

So this assumes that VG will boil at 554F with nasties at 420F and PG at 370/480F and so if you have a 50/50 mix you'll boil at 462F with the nasties at 450F. So these are numbers to test if it is fair to do linear interpolation for the mix temps or if something else is going on. There may be no truth to this whatsoever. The measurements will tell us about the boiling temps but we still don't know about the nasty formations. It could be that nasties still start at the lower 420F bound set by the VG or it could be that the VG is whisked away at a lower temp by the PG in the mix.

The Margin shown below is how many degrees of headroom we have in the interpolated values. It is interesting to note that by this we need at least 55% PG to stay in safe zone. In reality there is nic and flavoring that will add PG and/or water/other content as well.


Here's the table:
View attachment 654171

It appears you averaged the Boiling Points of the 2 components together to reach a theoretical BP.

From what I have been reading it is not that simple by any means. It started getting over my head real quick, but there is something called Raoult's Law that comes into play, and it gets down into the molecular level of things.

 

[VapNMirrors]

Well, I'd have to tro

It appears you averaged the Boiling Points of the 2 components together to reach a theoretical BP.

From what I have been reading it is not that simple by any means. It started getting over my head real quick, but there is something called Raoult's Law that comes into play, and it gets down into the molecular level of things.

Indeed, that's exactly what I'm doing. Computing the theoretical BP based on linear interpolation of the mix.

I can't recall which posts I lifted the nasties numbers from but 410F for 50/50 would look like this:

And now we need ~70%+ PG for margin. So I'm certainly hoping that the BP measurements come out differently on the molecular level.

 

[Eskie]

This is the Wang Study of a 50/50 mix, it shows the nasties starting to develop at ~410F.

View attachment 654181

But the real rapid rise in carbonyl production occurred at 275 C and up. Also, just to throw this out there and help keep things in perspective, you can take any organic compound and with enough heat get carbonyl breakdown products released. It's not unique to PG or VG (I know you never said that it was, but just wanted to throw it out there for reference for everyone). So if you check the vapor coming off that steak you're grilling to medium well done, you'll find carbonyl breakdown products in the smoke from that too. Along with nitrosamines in the crispy sections on the steak's surface (and no, I'm not a vegan, I like my steak medium rare with a nicely seared surface, and I'm not giving that up too).

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah, I have long heard that charbroiled food could cause cancer, had some for lunch in fact! Probably will again tomorrow, and definitely this weekend.

 

[VapNMirrors]

That link for Raoult's Law is a good read and yeah, there's a lot at play when 2 liquids are mixed, let alone more. The averaging in my table would coincide with Raoult's Law for an ideal mixture. It certainly won't be and your measurements will show how much so.

I'm sure there is also some amount of fractional distillation that occurs as we vape through a tank. We'll just ignore that for now...

 

[mikepetro]

But the real rapid rise in carbonyl production occurred at 275 C and up.

Yes, for the 50/50 mix it didnt start skyrocketing until around 500F.
But for the pure VG it shot damn near straight up at 410F.

 

[Eskie]

I'm sure there is also some amount of fractional distillation that occurs as we vape through a tank. We'll just ignore that for now...

I was going to post about that very issue and decided to sit on my hands as it would have created another 250 pages in this thread. But yes, fractional distillation has to occur whenever you heat/boil a solution of several liquids with different boiling points.

 

[mikepetro]

I was going to post about that very issue and decided to sit on my hands as it would have created another 250 pages in this thread. But yes, fractional distillation has to occur whenever you heat/boil a solution of several liquids with different boiling points.

Beyond my ability to measure though. So I am sticking with temp, as I know I can measure that accurately.

 

[zoiDman]

Beyond my ability to measure though. So I am sticking with temp, as I know I can measure that accurately.

Ah come on Mike.

How hard can it be to build a 1/500th scale ISOM Tower to do Fractional Distillation in your Garage?

 

[mikepetro]

Ah come on Mike.

How hard can it be to build a 1/500th scale ISOM Tower to do Fractional Distillation in your Garage?

The real question is, do I really care at that point.

 

[mikepetro]

Someone else asked me to do a cotton scorch test.

So I looked up the cotton scorch test and I honestly dont think it proves anything more than what I proved with the thermocouple at 400F in my first test. Both tests only validated one specific temperature. The cotton scorch test only validates that a mod is accurate at 420, nothing more.

So, I did a different test. The accuracy of my mod is going to come into play when I do the boiling point tests anyway, so I might as well get that out of the way.

Using the thermocouple I measured at a variety of temperature settings. Here are the results. Each reading was repeated twice. I have screen captures of all 5 datapoints if anyone desires validation.

• DNA set at 300, Thermocouple measured 307
• DNA set at 350, Thermocouple measured 349
• DNA set at 400, Thermocouple measured 393
• DNA set at 450, Thermocouple measured 442
• DNA set at 500, Thermocouple measured 485
• DNA set at 550, Thermocouple insulation melted before reading could be obtained

For the most part, actual temps were a tick on the low side. That could be the DNA, the TCR, the wire, etc. With exception of the 500 degree measurement they were all within Evolv's stated accuracy of +/- 10 degrees.

IMHO, this is better than a cotton scorch test.

 

[awsum140]

From those readings, either you've got a particularly accurate DNA or Evolv is very conservative when stating specs. I suspect the latter is the case, but either way it validate the specific mod/coil combination at the very least.

 

[Verb]

PG and water mixed to different concentrations displays fascinating behaviors.

 

[herb]

I knew people who never drank, smoked or did drugs and they were both exercise buffs , turns out they both perished , one at 48 and the other at 51 .

Look , if i am going to go through all that and also follow specific temperature guidelines to avoid carcinogens i need some type of guarantee . I will be ...... to put it lightly if i make that type of effort and i end up expiring anyway.

Don't know how others feel about this but i needed to say it.

 

[zoiDman]

I knew people who never drank, smoked or did drugs and they were both exercise buffs , turns out they both perished , one at 48 and the other at 51 .

Look , if i am going to go through all that and also follow specific temperature guidelines to avoid carcinogens i need some type of guarantee . I will be ...... to put it lightly if i make that type of effort and i end up expiring anyway.

Don't know how others feel about this but i needed to say it.

I can 100% Guarantee that Vaping is Completely Safe*.

* Guarantee Void in California, Tennessee and North Carolina.

 

[VapNMirrors]

PG and water mixed to different concentrations displays fascinating

Truly fascinating. This could get complicated...

 

[Lessifer]

I knew people who never drank, smoked or did drugs and they were both exercise buffs , turns out they both perished , one at 48 and the other at 51 .

Look , if i am going to go through all that and also follow specific temperature guidelines to avoid carcinogens i need some type of guarantee . I will be ...... to put it lightly if i make that type of effort and i end up expiring anyway.

Don't know how others feel about this but i needed to say it.

I guarantee that if you vape the way you want to, you'll be happier.

 

[Rossum]

I guarantee that if you vape the way you want to, you'll be happier.

And happy people live longer.
Happy People Live Longer | Science

 

[herb]

I can 100% Guarantee that Vaping is Completely Safe*.

* Guarantee Void in California, Tennessee and North Carolina.

I happen to reside in NC at this time , not a happy camper right now.

 

[ndb70]

Someone else asked me to do a cotton scorch test.

So I looked up the cotton scorch test and I honestly dont think it proves anything more than what I proved with the thermocouple at 400F in my first test. Both tests only validated one specific temperature. The cotton scorch test only validates that a mod is accurate at 420, nothing more.

So, I did a different test. The accuracy of my mod is going to come into play when I do the boiling point tests anyway, so I might as well get that out of the way.

Using the thermocouple I measured at a variety of temperature settings. Here are the results. Each reading was repeated twice. I have screen captures of all 5 datapoints if anyone desires validation.

• DNA set at 300, Thermocouple measured 307
• DNA set at 350, Thermocouple measured 349
• DNA set at 400, Thermocouple measured 393
• DNA set at 450, Thermocouple measured 442
• DNA set at 500, Thermocouple measured 485
• DNA set at 550, Thermocouple insulation melted before reading could be obtained

For the most part, actual temps were a tick on the low side. That could be the DNA, the TCR, the wire, etc. With exception of the 500 degree measurement they were all within Evolv's stated accuracy of +/- 10 degrees.

IMHO, this is better than a cotton scorch test.

Very interesting, could you please say again what wire was used in this accuracy test? I'm not sure which initial post stated that.

Thanks for all your efforts