Even if one doubts most studies as well as this research it is clear that shorter hits, longer pauses and a mix with some water content is simply safer. How much safer is open to debate but safer nonetheless. Much appreciated!
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I have one friend (@VapingBad here on ECF) who vapes 100% PG for the lower boiling point. I plan to try that later today.
Also, higher mass, with more wick coverage, (Heatflux as someone else pointed out) made a big difference for me with all else being equal. I was able to lower my temp by about 10% and still get a awesome vape.
So it is possible to lower your vape temperature without compromising your vape quality. Temperature matters, and lower temps are safer. I am not even sure I would worry about the exact number so much, just be conscious of the things you can do to vape at lower temps. If all of this temp business winds up being a red herring, what did it hurt?
I'm not convinced your larger coil is actually vaping at a lower temp. The mod will give you the average temp of the coil but the inner wraps could be just as hot (or more) while the average is still below that of the smaller coil. Think of it as having really long legs.
LOL, My first reaction was "I can measure that". Then I took the tank off and looked at the coil, not enough space for me to stick the probe tip in between the coils.
It does makes sense though, on a more spaced coil I measured it considerably cooler on the outside loops.
So while I had the tank open, I figured it was a good time to switch juices. I made a batch of 100% vg, 3.6% nic, and 7% flavor.
This wont be for everybody. It is a tick harsher, but not too much. The vape isnt as dense. It is an "adequate" vape though. And I was able to lower the temp by 30 degrees.
This wont be for everybody. It is a tick harsher, but not too much. The vape isnt as dense. It is an "adequate" vape though. And I was able to lower the temp by 30 degrees.
Dr Farsalinos offered the mOre detailed explanation but it's about the type of chamber they're using. It isn't representative of actual vaping. I believe he wrote an article on it but specific to this topic if you go back to the early pages you'll see his twitter response to me.
The problem with all These "studies" is that the scientists seem to forget scientific method. They either aren't isolating or they're not using the products as vapers would.
You can find a lot of info about supposed studies here What's new ?
A Studies Results may not be applicable to all Situations. Or it's Methodology used may Not be reflective of what a given person/reader Uses.
But that Doesn't mean that the Science was Flawed.
I think where the Problem lies with Many Studies is the Implied Conclusion that the Unscientific Media (or sometimes the Authors) portrays.
Here's the issue with this study.
"Methods
PG, GL, PG:GL = 1:1 (wt/wt) mixture, and two commercial e-cigarette liquids were vaporized in a stainless steel, tubular reactor in flowing air ranging up to 318°C to simulate e-cigarette vaping. Aerosols were collected and analyzed to quantify the amount of volatile carbonyls produced with each of the five e-liquids."
Vaporization chamber and their effort was to
Simulate. It did not properly simulate. Dr farsalinos has written about the problems with vaporization chamber methodology.
The biggest problem is exemplified in this thread. 155 pages or so if discussion so the damage is done. Some news outlet could just come along and say. This study was done and look how concerned vapers are now.
Here is a counter on formaldehyde
E-cigarette aerosol contains 6 times LESS formaldehyde than tobacco cigarette smoke
OK, I found it, but it doesnt convince me.
I cant get past the finding that at 450F you get nasties out of vg.
It seems to me that whether you use an ecig, a torch, a chamber, or a campfire, if VG gives off nasties at 450f then I cant understand why it wouldnt on a 450f SS316 coil. Now, quantities measured in their fog machine vs an ecig are possibly different, but their presence at some level seems logical.
If I heat water in a reactor and it gives off steam at 100C, why wouldnt I expect steam in a tea kettle or shot glass at 100c, the quantity of steam might be different, but the steam is still there at 100C..
The question i think is whether you're heating to that level in regular usage. In a properly wicked device are you heating he liquid to 450?
And then if you are the nastiest being given off are still far less than cigarettes.
In temp control you're heating the coil to a given temp. A calculation thats based on a mathematical equation regarding wire resistance changes. Which is why we don't see kanthal used. If you heat a coil to 450 that doesn't mean you're heating the liquid to 450.
It's not like a water heater. You're not holding a steady temperature.
If you take a piece of iron that's 1000 degrees and put it in water you're not heating the water to 1000 degrees.
Those are some arguments but the bottom line is without proper methodology we don't know. You can't draw an assumption that because a vaporization chamber with simulated airflow and simulated heating said so. It's too far off to be accurate. The way our ecigs work is just totally different and as such hitting the levels they're hitting isn't anywhere near as likely as you're thinking. Particularly setting a temp control device to 450 or whatever else. Too many variables. It's exactly this kind of thinking that is to be avoided in science.
Vaping is about harm reduction. I'd never propose someone who wasn't s smoker take up vaping. I think most of us can agree that we don't have nearly enough information to know what it's doing. However we can say that the accurate studies accomplished so far all show that it's far less harmful than smoking. Which is what we would be doing.
If you're truly concerned about your health you probably should stop vaping. I mean logically inhaling something other than air over and over isn't going to be a good idea for those who are health conscious.
There's also another route. If you're truly worried. Most nicotine is absorbed through the soft palette. So don't inhale your vapor. Put it in your mouth only. The nicotine will still get to you as most is absorbed in the mouth and nasal passage anyway.
Concluding that Nasties start forming when a given e-Liquid reaches a given Temperature, using Good Protocols/Controls and a Repeatable Method, is what Science is All About.
Implying, thru a Study Conclusion or a Media Sudo-Science article, that [all] e-cigarettes incur such Nasties is Not Science. Not even Flawed Science. It is at best, Uneducated Hype.
What you are doing is Trying to take a Reasonable Result and seeing if it Applies to certain Hardware(s) under certain Vaping Conditions?
That has a tone that is way different than anything I have proposed here. It "sounds" like you think I am saying vaping is evil. That has never been my premise. I have never said vapping was more dangerous than smoking, I have never said anyone should stop vaping, I have simply said that some nasties can be avoided by not vaping too hot.
Honestly, I dont get why people are so adamantly reluctant to simply entertain keeping their vape temperatures lower than 450f? Yes, vaping is all about harm reduction, if you can reduce the harm even further by vaping at 420f, why the heck not? It is not different than saying - using a little less salt is healthier.
Because 450 is a completely random number. That's why. And it implies hat you need temp control to be safe. Which may not be true.
I don't understand why you are continuing to argue for 450 when it's an arbitrary number.
No I wasn't implying you think vaping is evil. I was suggesting that if you're bother enough byfkawed science to set an arbitrary number your mind may be more at easy if you don't inhale or stop vaping all together.
There's no information that nasties are present in an ecig as it's vaped by members here. There is flawed science showing if you vape how their chamber is setup with that flawed heating and flawed airflow nasties far lower than those of smoking may be produced.
There is no information showing you using a vape at 450 with stainless wire is less harmful than using an ecig which wicks properly with kanthal and no temp control.
You've got it in our head nOw though it seems. That 450 is a magic number to be safe. It's not. It's the temp they observed if their liquid in their chamber and holds no bearing on vaping whatsoever. I really don't know how else to communicate it so I'll Stop here to
Avoid your frustration and mine.
The bottom line is the comparison is like this.
If I heat pickles in a pot to 500 degrees over the course of an hour they emit toxic chemicals. So don't eat cucumbers.
Yes. It's that relevant. Which is to say not at all.
And that's before we discuss how inaccurate temp control is or what point the measurement is taken.
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Given the right circumstances you can make anything toxic. That doesn't relate to my vaping style. If I heat a coil with no liquid carcinogens are expelled from burning cotton. I don't vape empty tanks. Same thing.
Either you live in a world of science and scientific method must apply or you base things on anecdotal evidence which likely holds no correlation. I choose the former.
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