New York Post and a deadly vape pen

[Eskie]

Well talk to Edward Denison here. He had seen plenty of battery packs explode on a construction site. And sometimes they do tell you what kind of batteries used in a power pack.
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Oh, I'm not surprised to hear that. I'd be amazed if it didn't happen but it's amazing but it never makes the news. And think of all the construction workers who can get upset at a vape mod but are fine with their cordless equipment.

People don't get how many devices they use that contain the same batteries that we do and they're not afraid of those, but one story about a vaper and it's a national news story. I feel bad for both people who have been mentioned here who died from a vape related battery failure, whether through misuse or an out of left field spontaneous internal failure, but we live with risk every day when we use any electrical device.

It's like how it was a major story when a Tesla battery pack failed on someone in CA. Fortunately no one injured, but how many car fires occurred nationally that same day? Fuel lines leak or other engine failures occur that set a car on fire without being in any accident. And trucks. And busses. But we're so used to driving gasoline or diesel powered vehicles it's background noise to us (and annoying when traffic gets backed up and you're in the middle of it) but a newfangled electric car and it's a national lead story. Sane with our vape gear. Cigarette and matches / lighter fires have been occurring ever since there were matches and cigarettes. vaping is new, and new scares people. It's like thinking flying is dangerous as you drive to the airport even though you're more likely to die in your car going there.

 

[ScottP]

It's like how it was a major story when a Tesla battery pack failed on someone in CA. Fortunately no one injured, but how many car fires occurred nationally that same day? Fuel lines leak or other engine failures occur that set a car on fire without being in any accident. And trucks. And busses. But we're so used to driving gasoline or diesel powered vehicles it's background noise to us (and annoying when traffic gets backed up and you're in the middle of it) but a newfangled electric car and it's a national lead story.

To be fair, the Ford Explorer became known as the Ford Exploder for a while because faulty ignition switches were causing them to spontaneously catch fire which was heavily reported. The Samsung battery issue was heavily reported as was the Firestone tires randomly losing their tread and causing accidents.

 

[Eskie]

To be fair, the Ford Explorer became known as the Ford Exploder for a while because faulty ignition switches were causing them to spontaneously catch fire which was heavily reported. The Samsung battery issue was heavily reported as was the Firestone tires randomly losing their tread and causing accidents.

All true. But there were a lot more Expoloers and Firestone tires out there than Teslas. Those became major stories when the failures reached a critical mass and couldn't be ignored as a one off event.

The Samsung Note fires were big stories. They did fail at a higher rate than other smartphones, and who knows what other competing phone manufacturers out there had publicists make sure the story got out with the Samsung part in big letters (not saying I know that happened, but business is business and PR is PR). Besides, there are still people out there who believe cellphones cause brain cancer, so exploding phones are like candy as you don't have to prove any facts to make your point about their evils. It happened, so folks can't deny the dangers.

Still, I can get on a plane and use my wireless headphones (noise canceling is a wonderful thing) wireless tablet and phone, set up a virtual office like the other hundred or so people on the flight, but my single mod brings the threat of imminent death? But that's the society, unable to grasp relative risk, that we live in

 

[ScottP]

All true. But there were a lot more Expoloers and Firestone tires out there than Teslas. Those became major stories when the failures reached a critical mass and couldn't be ignored as a one off event.

The Samsung Note fires were big stories. They did fail at a higher rate than other smartphones, and who knows what other competing phone manufacturers out there had publicists make sure the story got out with the Samsung part in big letters (not saying I know that happened, but business is business and PR is PR). Besides, there are still people out there who believe cellphones cause brain cancer, so exploding phones are like candy as you don't have to prove any facts to make your point about their evils. It happened, so folks can't deny the dangers.

Still, I can get on a plane and use my wireless headphones (noise canceling is a wonderful thing) wireless tablet and phone, set up a virtual office like the other hundred or so people on the flight, but my single mod brings the threat of imminent death? But that's the society, unable to grasp relative risk, that we live in

I am not in disagreement. I agree they are way overzealous with vape issues.

If we are talking only about single incident national news, don't forget about the camera battery explosion at the airport a while back that sent people into a panic. No one is calling for a camera ban though.

 

[stols001]

To be fair, that whole "death by" thing can be a bit misleading.

I mean, mattresses, last I checked were like SURPISINGLY deadly. I even left the tag on mine for a while, that's what the statistics were indicating.

I sort of failed to realize that a) a lot of people die (hopefully peacefully in their sleep, one chick I know had a guy die ON her during some "fun time" he had a heart condition and he didn't TELL her even, so there is that) but yeah mainly old people dying peacefully in their sleep and b) that do not remove tag is there for the seller, not the buyer. I am still not sure it's exact PURPOSE but like, you can remove the tag if you want.

I usually don't because it helps me remember if I've flipped it or not for the 6 month period. I suppose SOME mattress deaths could happen then but I am thinking not the majority.
Anna

 

[DaveP]

The articles in the newspaper and the posts in this thread make me thankful that I'm satisfied with my .5 to 1 ohm coils at 10W +/-. I'm usually ramping up somewhere between 3.4A and 4.5A. My 18650's feel almost imperceptibly warm to my hands right out of the mod after vaping down to cutoff.

Mech mod purchasers really should have to take a short course in safe use before the purchase, but that would require that they be purchased in a brick and mortar store. I'll venture to say that exploding mod cases would take a sharp dive if mod safety was a requirement before purchase.

 

[Mooch]

P

Nobody said to put each cell into thermal runaway and then turn around and sell them. In the PBusardo's video, humans could walk into that room. So how hot could it be? Maybe 150°F tops? You just need enough heat to allow for expansion. This is where those Samsung Galaxy Note 7 batteries failed. If Samsung did the same with their batteries, they would have caught those batteries instead of allowing them to blow up in the user's hands or pocket.

Sure doing certain tests on every cell may degrade performance. But what are you after, a safer cell or a high performing cell? Take your pick. I myself rather give up performance for safer anyday.

Remember what Jay Whitacre said, a professor of materials science and engineering at Carnegie Mellon University, told Wired in 2015: "There is no way to tell when buying, since the catastrophic failure likely will not manifest until the battery is fully charged and discharged several times."

And I say why allow the user to get the cell passed this point? Why not have the manufacture get it pass this critical time?

Because with good process control it’s not necessary. Why pay more money for a damaged cell if it’s not needed?

The failures you point out were pouch cells, completely different chemistry and construction from the round cells we use. Their field failure rates, as incredibly low as they are, have no bearing on the safety of our round cells.

Aspire/Yong De Li might need to do this additional testing because of their uncontrolled manufacturing environment, begging for particulate contamination and moisture, which can lead to a much higher failure rate. Calling the testing an additional safety step might be true but it could be only because of the unacceptable failure rate if they didn’t do it. That’s not a safety benefit, it might be required to in order to not blow everyone up.

What are you basing your statement about Aspire cells being safer on? Just a video,and their marketing statements? There’s no data, no basis for it. Field failure reports are useless as Aspire might only sell 1,000th the number of cells that Efest might. You can’t judge safety without comparing the number of cells sold too. We can’t even remotely say that Aspire catches all the cells that will eventually fail due to internal defects...there’s zero data to support that conclusion.

The big manufacturers don’t do extended heating-before-selling testing because it’s not needed. Their internal defect failure rate is astoundingly low. You mention a few incidents with a few failures for each (the number of batteries recalled is irrelevant, it’s just a prudent action to take). But hundreds of millions of cells are made each year and billions of them are out there. And yet, you only mention this small number of incidents. Aspire could easily be hitting that failure rate or even be much higher than that but they sell so few cells it rarely comes up.

Debating certain aspects of cell safety without any supporting data can be fun for a discussion but we can’t make any conclusions based on it.

 

[Mooch]

Oh but you are wrong. There is a statistical significance and Efest batteries comes up all of the time when a lithium cell explodes. More times than not, it was an Efest. There was even a case of a seller who sold a vaper an Efest battery and the seller lost in court (2 mil + expenses) because the vaper's lawyer proved Efest are shady batteries.

The batteries originated with a Chinese company named E-fest, which purchases lower-grade batteries from companies such as Sony and Panasonic, Morgan said. R-L Sales, which is based in Utah, imports them from China and sells them online, he added.

R-L Sales had a duty to adequately test the batteries in vaporizers to ensure they did not present a danger. It was negligent in failing to do that, the suit states.​

Gainesville man wins $2M verdict after e-cigarette explodes in his mouth

But without knowing the cell sales numbers any comparisons of the number of alleged field failures is useless. User error needs to be removed from the equations too as any cell can fail if short-circuited.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Well put @Mooch a 5% failure rate is 5% regardless if a manufacture sells 5000 cells or 5 mil. However, with the later due to the sheer number the public is most likely going to hear about it…..and form a biased opinion.

I can’t help but think of the unnecessary risk using a heated room for fault testing on tens of thousands of cells. It only takes 1 cell to fail in a fiery fashion to ruin the rest. Think of the loss in profits and any potential sacrifices made to try and regain those losses.

 

[Mooch]

Remember what Jay Whitacre said, a professor of materials science and engineering at Carnegie Mellon University, told Wired in 2015: "There is no way to tell when buying, since the catastrophic failure likely will not manifest until the battery is fully charged and discharged several times."

Exactly! This is why buying from the large manufacturers, instead of the small China factories, is a lot less risky. The large companies have astoundingly low failure rates due to their much better process control and the use of controlled manufacturing environments. There is zero data on the field failure rates of these smaller China manufacturers.

Why take such a big chance? Because of statements by Aspire management in a video?

[edit] You realize, of course, that Aspire says that Yong De Li doesn’t do anything more than charge their cells once as part of their manufacture and testing. No cycling for each cell, not even a discharge. Just the standard voltage and internal resistance checks, which all the major manufacturers do (and not by hand either!). Whitacre’s statement must be applied equally to Aspire.

Aspire puts their cells aside for “aging” and to catch those that self-destruct due to the lack of process control and the open environment they’re manufactured in but how do they know if the cells have failed or not if they haven’t blow up? I saw no mention of another round of voltage and internal resistance checking after aging to catch field failures.

So, any failed cells that don’t blow up are sold. This is somehow a better manufacturing practice than what the major manufacturers do (use better process control and a controlled environment to reduce field failures to an incredibly low rate)?

 

[Frenchfry1942]

With the NY Post and the deadly vape pen...in the conservatory!

 

[Mooch]

Sure doing certain tests on every cell may degrade performance. But what are you after, a safer cell or a high performing cell? Take your pick. I myself rather give up performance for safer anyday.

If we are going to come to safety conclusions without supporting data then here’s something to consider...

Both of the Aspire 1800mAh cells I tested a quite a while ago vented at below their 40A rating. Just a split venting disk and leak of electrolyte. This was the ONLY failure of any kind I have ever had when testing over 300 different cells and at least a couple thousand vaping-related cell test discharges. Many, many of these discharges were at FAR above the cell’s true rating.

Does this mean that 100% of the Aspire 1800mAh cells will vent when used at below their rating? Does this mean that none of the other cells I tested at above their their rating will never vent?

No, of course not. But we could easily sit here and conclude that the Aspire cells were far more dangerous than any other I have tested. I have “proof”.

This is why it’s so important to use the proper data, and in the correct way, before making safety-related conclusions about failure rates. Sales numbers, the failure rates, the cell type and chemistry, those are all critical. There is zero data to support saying Aspire cells are somehow safer than those from the major manufacturers.

I would LOVE to see the data! I would LOVE to see a small China manufacturer make a cell with a lower failure rate than anyone else. But not one of these smaller China battery companies has supplied any data that could support that desire and their manufacturing environment and processes make that a very unlikely scenario. They often don’t even have the UN38.3 test reports to send, much less UL or IEC test results or field failure rates.

Each of us is free to choose any cell we want. For any reason we might want. But we can’t say that Aspire is safer or the large OEM cells are riskier.