Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

[Coastal Cowboy]

Right, in the here and now, where if nic gets too far oxidized, we can just buy more, and a year's supply of nic costs less than what many of us would spend on a carton of smokes in the past.

But what happens if/when the FDA decides that the era of free-flowing nic is over? At that point, we become dependent on whatever we've got in our stockpiles, and the question this thread attempts to answer is: Does it really make a difference how you store it?

At the rate of change I've experienced, and with the relatively minimal impact that change has had on what I'm making and vaping, It will be decades before I'm adversely impacted enough to face tossing it.

But, that's just me. All other mileages will likely vary.

 

[DaveP]

Right now I'm vaping a tank of FA Virginia 2% mix using the nic in the bottle picture I posted. There's a little throat hit, but that's from the FA Virginia. My unflavored mix is smooth and a little sweet from the 40% VG component. As I said uptopic I probably should and will order a small bottle of fresh nic for comparison. I'll post when I've done that.

 

[Mowgli]

For sure, keep me in mind.

Bummer. I just spoke to the new owner.
It's still there but he's a fisherman so he's keeping it.

 

[r77r7r]

If I was intending to speed up oxidation of my nic concentrate, I would:

- use LDPE bottles, as they are the most porous
- open and use some periodically, introducing more and more oxygen
- keep it at room temperature, allowing plenty of molecular activity

That's what I did with my first 120ml bottle of nic I bought from Good Prophets in 2012. It was brown/amber within about nine months.

I've used full bottles, non-ldpe plastic and glass, stored in the freezer ever since. Virtually no tint, smell or taste after three+ years.

Based on what I've seen in Rossum's experiment as well as Kurt's thoughts, temperature is the primary issue, the colder the better. Headroom and container porosity are next, then light.

Speaking of Headroom, weren't many people here topping off with Nitrogen, back a few? I wonder how well those bottles faired?

 

[ShowerHead]

Bummer. I just spoke to the new owner.
It's still there but he's a fisherman so he's keeping it.

Thanks for the try.
Maybe Santa will bring me one.

 

[kas122461]

Speaking of Headroom, weren't many people here topping off with Nitrogen, back a few? I wonder how well those bottles faired?

I didn't use Nitrogen, but I used Argon and I am still using a batch I bought in Dec of 2013. Bottled in the blue cobalt glass & argon purged, and kept in the freezer. I also wrap each bottle in aluminum foil and food service film. Most of them are in 50 ml bottles. When I have opened a new bottle, it is crystal clear. I only get to see that when I am doing a mix, then my opened bottle always goes back in the freezer.

KAS

 

[kas122461]

DBL Post.

KAS

 

[r77r7r]

I didn't use Nitrogen, but I used Argon and I am still using a batch I bought in Dec of 2013. Bottled in the blue cobalt glass & argon purged, and kept in the freezer. I also wrap each bottle in aluminum foil and food service film. Most of them are in 50 ml bottles. When I have opened a new bottle, it is crystal clear. I only get to see that when I am doing a mix, then my opened bottle always goes back in the freezer.

KAS

Argon it is. TY kas

 

[r77r7r]

I didn't use Nitrogen, but I used Argon and I am still using a batch I bought in Dec of 2013. Bottled in the blue cobalt glass & argon purged, and kept in the freezer. I also wrap each bottle in aluminum foil and food service film. Most of them are in 50 ml bottles. When I have opened a new bottle, it is crystal clear. I only get to see that when I am doing a mix, then my opened bottle always goes back in the freezer.

KAS

Argon it is. TY kas

( bet I get a dubble post...)

 

[ChelsB]

I didn't use Nitrogen, but I used Argon and I am still using a batch I bought in Dec of 2013. Bottled in the blue cobalt glass & argon purged, and kept in the freezer. I also wrap each bottle in aluminum foil and food service film. Most of them are in 50 ml bottles. When I have opened a new bottle, it is crystal clear. I only get to see that when I am doing a mix, then my opened bottle always goes back in the freezer.

KAS

Where do you purchase your argon?

 

[Rossum]

Where do you purchase your argon?

Any welding supply place will have it.

A more accessible alternative is a wine preserver gas mixture.

 

[IDJoel]

Nitrogen, argon, and any other inert gas heavier than air (thereby displacing it) are suitable. But there is NO data that they offer any significant benefit over a properly contained (glass), and sealed (polycone-capped), container with minimal headspace. (Logic being: there is only so much oxygen available to begin with; that effects are minimal. See @Kurt's sticky: Long Term Nic Storage)

"The main issue with long-term nic storage is keeping O2 from getting from the environment into the bottle. Even with a few mL of headspace and leaving the dissolved O2 in PG/VG, there is just not much O2 present at all. Even if it ALL reacts, it will lead to negligible oxidation." Kind of sums it up... for me anyway.

This seems (to me) more of a matter of personal choice (aka "I feel better about it") than measurable results. If you have the finances, and the willingness to do so, it shouldn't(?) hurt.

I have yet to read one post (anecdotal<"this worked for me because...">; or scientific<measured and repeatable>) where this has made a difference.

Just me; but I need more convincing...

 

[kas122461]

Where do you purchase your argon?

Any welding supply place will have it.

A more accessible alternative is a wine preserver gas mixture.

That is where I got my argon, I bought a tank many years ago when I was interested in TIG welding. You can also get nitrogen there as well if you wish.

KAS

 

[kas122461]

Nitrogen, argon, and any other inert gas heavier than air (thereby displacing it) are suitable. But there is NO data that they offer any significant benefit over a properly contained (glass), and sealed (polycone-capped), container with minimal headspace. (Logic being: there is only so much oxygen available to begin with; that effects are minimal. See @Kurt's sticky: Long Term Nic Storage)

"The main issue with long-term nic storage is keeping O2 from getting from the environment into the bottle. Even with a few mL of headspace and leaving the dissolved O2 in PG/VG, there is just not much O2 present at all. Even if it ALL reacts, it will lead to negligible oxidation." Kind of sums it up... for me anyway.

This seems (to me) more of a matter of personal choice (aka "I feel better about it") than measurable results. If you have the finances, and the willingness to do so, it shouldn't(?) hurt.

I have yet to read one post (anecdotal<"this worked for me because...">; or scientific<measured and repeatable>) where this has made a difference.

Just me; but I need more convincing...

For me it is simple, the recommendation that you reduce contact with oxygen, and using a inert gas to do so, just made sense to me. I all ready had the gas so I just did it, also there are several Nic suppliers that do this also. I am sure that it probably, makes a very small amount of difference. I stocked up on Nicotine to last me 20+ Years, so I want as little degradation as possible.

KAS

 

[DaveP]

The infusion of the small amount of air that's in the neck below the cap doesn't really give me pause. You'd have to shake it to introduce the air into the mix. Even if that small amount of air becomes infused it probably wouldn't affect the taste of the nic. Just my opinion, though.

Not having to worry about a tiny nic spill from opening a fully filled bottle is worth having some head space.

 

[Rossum]

Nitrogen, argon, and any other inert gas heavier than air (thereby displacing it) are suitable. But there is NO data that they offer any significant benefit over a properly contained (glass), and sealed (polycone-capped), container with minimal headspace. (Logic being: there is only so much oxygen available to begin with; that effects are minimal. See @Kurt's sticky: Long Term Nic Storage)

Since air is 78% nitrogen, there's no significant density difference. In fact, pure nitrogen is slightly lighter than air, whereas argon quite a bit heavier, which means it tends to stay put in a bottle until displaced by the liquid used to fill it.

I agree, there's no data showing a benefit. There's also the question of what exactly "purged" means To truly minimize the oxygen in a bottle of nic base, you'd have to do all decanting and mixing in something like a glove-box full of inert gas. Just filling the headspace with an inert gas after decanting and mixing in air wouldn't be optimal.

That said, it sure can't hurt to try to eliminate as much air/oxygen as possible either, using whatever means are available.

 

[coldgin96]

Since air is 78% nitrogen, there's no significant density difference.

Except breathing nitrogen without oxygen will kill you.

 

[sofarsogood]

I have my life time supply. Where I'm looking for possible improvement is in packaging, mostly to protect against loss due to an accident. Currently my long term storage is several 1 liter amber glass bottles which are put in a zip lock bag, surrounded with thin bubble wrap then that goes into a second zip lock bag. My thinking is if a bottle breaks and peirces the first bag most likely the second bag will hold and give me a chance to salvage the liquid. I wouldn't mind having padding superior to the bubble wrap. At least the bubble wrap is flexiblee enough that frost build up woould never put pressure on the bottle.

Another thing I think about is the possibility of separation of the liquids over years. Will the nic and carrier, I use PG, stay evenly mixed or separate oover time? Re mixing before diviiding into separate smaller bottles years from now has been on my mind for a whiile. My prefered precaution is too cobble together a bottle roller so I can completely remix over night before dividinng a 1 liter bottle. But may be there is no separation.

 

[Burnie]

My prefered precaution is too cobble together a bottle roller

When I saw that, I thought of this. (I have One)

 

[sofarsogood]

When I saw that, I thought of this. (I have One)
View attachment 701385

Nice work. Thanks. What is the distance between the rollers? The 1 liter amber glass bottles I use appear to be about 3 3/4" in diameter. Smaller plastic bottles used for mixing might be put in the rock tumbler for overnight mixing. It would be gentle and thorough.