If its a drug delivery device can you imagine what it would cost and taste like?No thanks!Get a chuck and some 100mg.
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Here's one of the more recent debates over aspects of that nature, which you may find interesting.
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Aubergine, thanks for taking the time to compose a summary, even though you were pooped and frustrated already. Should serve as a good and efficient reference for many.
A collective hug to all my fellow vapers on this post-injunction stay, post-PACT signing day, and I ain't even the collective hugging kind...
Because currently the FDA is calling e-cigs a drug delivery device and wants them off the market. They are confiscating shipments even as we speak. If this happens we will not see e-cigs at all for probably another 5 to 10 years. If the judge in the current court case rules that they are a tobacco product instead, yes we will lose our flavors as they exist now, but we can at least purchase the equipment and unflavored juice. And, who is to say that the suppliers can't just sell concentrated flavorings with no nicotine so that we can then flavor our own stock? It's definitely a better choice than not being able to buy them at all IMHO.
My thought about small U.S. suppliers is that they need to very quickly merge and/or acquire amongst themselves. There is no need for them to go under, imo. They could themselves stock up tremendously on V4L products, since V4L is the major standard in U.S. vaping, if not the only one. The infrastructure is already set up, with numerous companies. Just look at how many suppliers are in this subforum. This would help everyone, it seems. I think the only change would be that the smaller manufacturers in China would start changing production machines to the V4L Standard, and even they would not go under.
But I thing that a giant definitely needs to emerge on behalf of the ecig/vaping community, and very quickly, and come help. 8-o
MissMia, and everyone, I still think it's crazy for the FDA to regulate eCigs under either drug device, or tobacco.
It is a different and unique thing. It's a PV, and it even helps people not want the poison analog 'devices', or tobacco!
It is a different and unique thing. It's a PV, and it even helps people not want the poison analog 'devices', or tobacco!
It's not any crazier than the gov. forcing people to buy their healthcare insurance. Both of them come under the policy of MONEY.
The problem is, we are not numerous enough, nor for the most part are we organized enough, to make the government put this in a new classification.
Let's put it this way, recently in NJ they held public forums on whether or not e-cigs should be banned in the state. 5 people showed up to support the ban, NOBODY showed up against it. It's truly amazing how much most vapers appear to either just not care or think this will all blow over.
Truthfully, I think it's past time to come up with a 3rd solution. We are down to either the court (Judge Leon was the one to identify e-cigs as a tobacco product.) or the FDA and a total ban.
Well I agree that we're not numerous yet, StormFinch. But one good thing we can do is (quickly) share all the vaping benefits with smokers. I have so many smoking friends who express lots of interest in vaping.
Once my battery collection grows enough, I will probably give away to some of them my older ones with a complimentary cart.
Once my battery collection grows enough, I will probably give away to some of them my older ones with a complimentary cart.
Wasn't it organized crime that played a major role in the killing of prohibition? Wouldn't it be crazy if something like that happend to the ban if it happened?
Actually, from what the manufacturers tell me, they're not legal to sell here. The government owned tobacco producers in Yunan province contribute too much revenue to the government.
They sell bongs labeled as water pipes, they can say its for smoking whatever. And they in fact they sell vaporizers for "tobacco" and have for a long time. Pipe shops have always claimed their products are for legal substances so the paraphernalia issue isn't a problem. Then Liquid nicotine is also used as an insecticide. So there are your loopholes.
v1: It's not that I think that it would be good for them to be regulated as such, it's that most players actually involved in this litigation agree that is probably the best of the only possible real outcomes. Because they ARE going to be regulated under one umbrella or another. Nicotine has to be regulated, by federal law. It's a question of who regulates, and how. We're now in a sort of bubble, unregulated, untaxed, happy nowheresville, and pending Federal Court ruling (while the states do their thing meanwhile) - that's all.
Tobacco is the least regulated of nicotine products (a deeply valued American cultural tradition, with a mammoth popular and corporate lobby, like liquor, and NOT like electric cigarettes), and with of course an enormous tax revenue also, and the best hope is that that's the category where they might possibly be tucked. Then we'd soon have taxes on ecigs, probably big ones ("sin tax" - in NY now it's enormous on cigarettes) but not medical prescription pharma crap products (you want a probably ineffective ecig by Pfizer, with prescribed dosages and no flavors allowed [the kiddies] and etc?) or an all-out ban.
States need tobacco tax, they're drowning. It's a BIG source of revenue. Feds need the states not to drown. And FDA is in bed with Pharma (they have a profit-sharing contract, or something like - all tangled up), AND, in a sidewways way with Big Tobacco (FDA is gov't, gov't gets the taxes). Etc..
It's all a whole lot of power, money, and in truth, re "the people", a good many perfectly decent persons who think of nicotine as a vaguely unsavory item and don't particularly care if it goes away in this particular product, or any other, except grampa's pipe, which is sort of homey, and never, ever will think or care about it. These are rather mighty difficulties. Easy in here to feel very large and central but as nationally big causes go? Get real.
So anyway, that isn't just me at all, or some idiosyncratic preference; it's the only workable legal route that NJoy and SI figured they could take - ecigs as a "tobacco alternative" with no cessation claims, regulated as such.
v1John : "I think ultimately government will have to do what the people want, wouldn't it?"
I'm old, and political, and all I can do at this increasingly late hour is wearily rub my eyes and hug you for that dear, wistful sentiment.
Mostly, also, and again, "the people" aren't remotely interested in e-cigarettes as a cause. This is an extremely marginal issue in the larger context of All Issues out there.
Belle, the little companies would have to do stuff like what American Ruyan is doing. The Lobelia vaporizers. They saw this coming some time ago. RUYAN AMERICA LAUNCHES E-MYSTICK RAPP - Ruyan America Oh goodie. Ruyan does not manufacture ecigs in the US.
So um, a few people figure out how to make juice (remember, no more nicotine base from China, which is where virtually ALL of the juice makers get their base, including the ones who say "all-american"), and sell it locally with no advertising etc., and figure out how to convert Mystiks into nicotine PVs, or do cool things with regular batteries, what, in the basement? - and, um... well, that's cool. For the few who really are going to do that.
Adren, I'm sure, and some others, can construct something for personal use, using of course legal batteries, along with the... how many US juicemakers are there? Who are at that point presumably running an "underground"? Me, I sure the hell don't have time to be constructing my own constantly producing mini ecig operation, or cessing out illegal underground products, and all that. Few would.
Feh.
Of COURSE die-hard vapers will defiantly start all that up. Just, that's not a very swell and great a destiny for this amazing little product, from where i sit.
Tobacco is the least regulated of nicotine products (a deeply valued American cultural tradition, with a mammoth popular and corporate lobby, like liquor, and NOT like electric cigarettes), and with of course an enormous tax revenue also, and the best hope is that that's the category where they might possibly be tucked. Then we'd soon have taxes on ecigs, probably big ones ("sin tax" - in NY now it's enormous on cigarettes) but not medical prescription pharma crap products (you want a probably ineffective ecig by Pfizer, with prescribed dosages and no flavors allowed [the kiddies] and etc?) or an all-out ban.
States need tobacco tax, they're drowning. It's a BIG source of revenue. Feds need the states not to drown. And FDA is in bed with Pharma (they have a profit-sharing contract, or something like - all tangled up), AND, in a sidewways way with Big Tobacco (FDA is gov't, gov't gets the taxes). Etc..
It's all a whole lot of power, money, and in truth, re "the people", a good many perfectly decent persons who think of nicotine as a vaguely unsavory item and don't particularly care if it goes away in this particular product, or any other, except grampa's pipe, which is sort of homey, and never, ever will think or care about it. These are rather mighty difficulties. Easy in here to feel very large and central but as nationally big causes go? Get real.
So anyway, that isn't just me at all, or some idiosyncratic preference; it's the only workable legal route that NJoy and SI figured they could take - ecigs as a "tobacco alternative" with no cessation claims, regulated as such.
v1John : "I think ultimately government will have to do what the people want, wouldn't it?"
I'm old, and political, and all I can do at this increasingly late hour is wearily rub my eyes and hug you for that dear, wistful sentiment.
Mostly, also, and again, "the people" aren't remotely interested in e-cigarettes as a cause. This is an extremely marginal issue in the larger context of All Issues out there.
Belle, the little companies would have to do stuff like what American Ruyan is doing. The Lobelia vaporizers. They saw this coming some time ago. RUYAN AMERICA LAUNCHES E-MYSTICK RAPP - Ruyan America Oh goodie. Ruyan does not manufacture ecigs in the US.
So um, a few people figure out how to make juice (remember, no more nicotine base from China, which is where virtually ALL of the juice makers get their base, including the ones who say "all-american"), and sell it locally with no advertising etc., and figure out how to convert Mystiks into nicotine PVs, or do cool things with regular batteries, what, in the basement? - and, um... well, that's cool. For the few who really are going to do that.
Adren, I'm sure, and some others, can construct something for personal use, using of course legal batteries, along with the... how many US juicemakers are there? Who are at that point presumably running an "underground"? Me, I sure the hell don't have time to be constructing my own constantly producing mini ecig operation, or cessing out illegal underground products, and all that. Few would.
Feh.
Of COURSE die-hard vapers will defiantly start all that up. Just, that's not a very swell and great a destiny for this amazing little product, from where i sit.
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Nicotine vaporized can fall under the 'Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994'. Other drugs are classified that way and if the FDA wants to remove a dietary supplement from the market for safety reasons, it may do so; however, it must then hold public hearings, and the burden of proof is shifted to the FDA to prove that the dietary supplement is unsafe. Rather than applying for an NDA and the company having to pay the FDA would be responsible to do so. For example the drug Ephedra or its herbal equivalent ma huang.
And if that last one was extra-garbley, it's because I got one of those too-tired second winds that go into insomnia, which I have been trying to tamp down with Chivas, which is not working, and may not be sold as a Sleep Aid, except in Nyquil, but which seems to be having some effect, which in this case, thump thump, is not regulated by anyone, including apparently me, if that syntax up there is as bad as I think it is.
I love absolutely everyone in this forum, and I love that everyone has such happy stories, and I feel like I just ...... on a kitten doing this thread. I mean metaphorically. I don't have a kitten and it wasn't THAT much Chivas.
I love absolutely everyone in this forum, and I love that everyone has such happy stories, and I feel like I just ...... on a kitten doing this thread. I mean metaphorically. I don't have a kitten and it wasn't THAT much Chivas.
Joe Camel, no it can't. That's why Ruyan switched to LOBELIA. Nicotine will never be classified as a dietary supplement.
You can't just SAY stuff because you wish it were true.
Well, you can.
Can I have my pony yet?
You can't just SAY stuff because you wish it were true.
Well, you can.
Can I have my pony yet?
Nicotine is a naturally occurring compound in many vegetables including cauliflower, eggplant, potatoes, and tomatoes. In your face.
And they tried that with Nicotine Water, which didn't even get off the ground:
Nicotine not allowed in Supplements
The Food and Drug Administration has informed a marketer of a product containing nicotine and labeled as a dietary supplement that the product “does not meet the definition of a dietary supplement [and] is an unapproved new drug whose marketing violates the [Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act].” The company, Nico Worldwide, Inc., Oxnard, California, had submitted a notification under Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulation, Section 101.93 last October to inform FDA of a structure-function claim it intended to make for its product, Nic Lite ™, containing 2 to 4 mg of nicotine per 16 ounces. The product would bear the following labeling: Nicotine is a naturally occurring compound in many vegetables including cauliflower, eggplant, potatoes, and tomatoes… Dietary nicotine may help maintain a healthy smoke free lifestyle. The staff of the American Herbal Products Association (AHPA) became aware of Nic Lite ™ last Monday when Mark Ullman of Ullman, Shapiro & Ullman provided a link to a recent ABC News story on the product. ABC identified the product as “a lemon-flavored drink laced with nicotine,” sold in an 8 -ounce bottle which “contains the same amount of nicotine as two cigarettes.” But AHPA staff is also aware that the federal definition of dietary supplements uses the words “other than tobacco” in describing this class of goods, and that FDA had, on July 2, 2002, expressly stated that products described as “nicotine water” should be “regarded as an unapproved new drug and cannot be legally marketed as a dietary supplement.” FDA states, "Nicotine “is an article authorized for investigation as a new drug” and cited the language in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act that specifically excludes any such article from use in dietary supplements. The mere presence of nicotine in foods such as cauliflower, eggplant, potatoes, and tomatoes, without any evidence that these foods were promoted for their nicotine content, does not constitute ‘marketing’ nicotine as a food or dietary supplement” under the law.
Nicotine not allowed in Supplements
The Food and Drug Administration has informed a marketer of a product containing nicotine and labeled as a dietary supplement that the product “does not meet the definition of a dietary supplement [and] is an unapproved new drug whose marketing violates the [Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act].” The company, Nico Worldwide, Inc., Oxnard, California, had submitted a notification under Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulation, Section 101.93 last October to inform FDA of a structure-function claim it intended to make for its product, Nic Lite ™, containing 2 to 4 mg of nicotine per 16 ounces. The product would bear the following labeling: Nicotine is a naturally occurring compound in many vegetables including cauliflower, eggplant, potatoes, and tomatoes… Dietary nicotine may help maintain a healthy smoke free lifestyle. The staff of the American Herbal Products Association (AHPA) became aware of Nic Lite ™ last Monday when Mark Ullman of Ullman, Shapiro & Ullman provided a link to a recent ABC News story on the product. ABC identified the product as “a lemon-flavored drink laced with nicotine,” sold in an 8 -ounce bottle which “contains the same amount of nicotine as two cigarettes.” But AHPA staff is also aware that the federal definition of dietary supplements uses the words “other than tobacco” in describing this class of goods, and that FDA had, on July 2, 2002, expressly stated that products described as “nicotine water” should be “regarded as an unapproved new drug and cannot be legally marketed as a dietary supplement.” FDA states, "Nicotine “is an article authorized for investigation as a new drug” and cited the language in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act that specifically excludes any such article from use in dietary supplements. The mere presence of nicotine in foods such as cauliflower, eggplant, potatoes, and tomatoes, without any evidence that these foods were promoted for their nicotine content, does not constitute ‘marketing’ nicotine as a food or dietary supplement” under the law.
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