Ok All You Original Maker Type People... Knock It Off...!!!

[Maurice Pudlo]

I don’t feel that I’m steeling at all. There aren’t patents for mechanical mods. And the mods that I buy don’t have logos or fake serial numbers on them. So as far as I’m concerned, I am paying the maker of the mod. Now the logos and serial numbers… that is wrong and should be stopped. IMO

Have you ever driven through a cookie cutter housing development?

Every home (all 4 designs) has a different street number, maybe a different trim color, or is simply mirrored. Mirroring, paint, and street numbers aren't enough to convince anyone that each of the homes are not copies built from one of four floorplans.

A red and blue toy robot that transforms into a Volvo tractor and trailer rig named Optimal Prime is arguably close enough to be called a knock off let alone an exact 1:1 replica of Optimus Prime minus the Autobot symbol.

Maurice

 

[NathanielFT]

Don't care who doesn't like it, don't care if it's protected/copyrighted/whatever, if there's a mod for £250 available i really like, and there's a 1:1 replica of it which I can get for £30.00, I will go with the £30.00 one. We aren't talking about counterfeit clothing where the materials are cheap, the stitching is crap and it's really not even worth the change it cost to make - we're talking about replicated metal tubes with logo's, not even electronics, just metal, so not only will they look identical, they will perform identically too (if you buy a good clone).

"Your supporting asian child labour" - ermmm, have you seen Hcigar's factory and production facility? Not only no kids working anywhere, it's a lot bigger and cleaner with bigger machenery then a lot of OEM makers working out of their sheds (no disrespect at all to any original mod maker as they are the true innovators and craftsmen who are still ultimately to thank for all the mods we use and love). And don't act like you don't shop at Primark and other cheap clothing outlets that use child labour. Where do you think those nike trainers were made, or that smartphone?

"Your stealing" - not when it still cost me money i'm not

"It's not as good as the original" - Not all clones are, but some are - how can they not be when they are 1:1 clones using the same materials and parts are even interchangeable with the original lol. A mod maker isn't a skilled trade like a watch smith (try getting a replica tourbillon and see how long it lasts) so everything and anything a mod maker has done has most likely been done with a machine, and can definitely be replicated with one. Beside's I paid about 20% of what you did anyway

"Your not supporting the mod makers in the west" - Why do i need to? What do I owe these people? Is everything you buy from your own homeland? What brand is your TV? Your phone? I admire the innovation of these mod makers but if they cannot produce an item with enough supply that it is readily available when I have the funds available, and at a cost that doesn't mean I need to budget to get it, then I would.

 

[Equilibrium]

..."Have you ever driven through a cookie cutter housing development?"....

Um... yes. I've actually built several of them. I wouldn’t call what I did “cookie cutter” though. Prior to 2000 I was a housing developer and duplicating the same floor plan in a neighborhood is very common. In fact the house I live in (the last house I built) is built 3 other times on my street. None of them look alike though. You would never know they are the exact same house from the outside.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

..."Have you ever driven through a cookie cutter housing development?"....

Um... yes. I've actually built several of them. I wouldn’t call what I did “cookie cutter” though. Prior to 2000 I was a housing developer and duplicating the same floor plan in a neighborhood is very common. In fact the house I live in (the last house I built) is built 3 other times on my street. None of them look alike though. You would never know they are the exact same house from the outside.

Like Optimal Prime vs Optimus Prime without the Autobot logo; or a marked Nemesis vs an unmarked copper Nemesis.

A little different, but not really.

Maurice

 

[Myk]

Some mod makers do have unbelievably precise and skilled machining, which PRC could never match. Tatroe Mods, for instance. When I used ProTank 2s, the fix I found for them was a Tatroe cap. Comparing the PRC made cap to the Tatroe cap is a joke. One looks like it is worth 5 cents, the other- adding in its function, worth the $15 it costs. The difference is night and day in material, machining and function...

It's still pushing a button on a CNC machine.
There is no skill to modern machining, there's measuring and resetting when it gets out of spec, there's knowledge of running that particular machine.
It's not like me on a watchmaker's lathe cutting a staff for an old watch or a one off shop on an old lathe making parts for a model T. And those actual skilled machining jobs for single pieces don't charge like that.

Could I jump in and do my brother-in-law's job without training? No, but with training I could. Could he jump in and do my job even with training, probably not.
If we went back to the days when factories weren't all roboted and computerized my job there would be above his pay grade. Now my job there is replaced with a computer designer, his job is a keypad and a micrometer.
If they would put a more user friendly GUI on his machine anyone could do it without training.

China Clones are made by the hands of forced child labor for pennies a day. So buying clones is supporting this.

I highly doubt if child labor is used in a metal machine shop the parts and tools are too heavy. Child labor is more for textiles, toys and fireworks. If you buy or watch most fireworks you're the one supporting child labor.
If you have direct knowledge of child labor in China turn it in. It is illegal in there.

 

[Equilibrium]

An unmarked copper tube with two caps and a switch is just that. A tube with two caps and a switch. Not much you can do about that.

 

[Chelonian]

I highly doubt if child labor is used in a metal machine shop the parts and tools are too heavy. Child labor is more for textiles, toys and fireworks. If you buy or watch most fireworks you're the one supporting child labor.
If you have direct knowledge of child labor in China turn it in. It is illegal in there.

ROFL

I have worked several contracts in China.

This statement is hilarious.

 

[Equilibrium]

I too doubt children are running the machines that produce the mods. Maybe pushing a broom but not running a CNC, lathe or mill.

I'd like to see links, please

 

[snork]

I've never bought stolen property and to the best of my knowledge the vendor that I buy from hasn't either. Don't be so dramatic.

Good for you.
I'll be as dramatic as I want.

 

[Chelonian]

Top three google results.

Anyone trying to dispute this is more than a little out of touch. it's well documented. I also witnessed it. As for reporting it, the cops will round up kids who run off from the town factory. It's worse in the country than the city.


https://sites.google.com/a/tapa.tp.edu.tw/modern-day-slavery/child-labor/child-labor-in-china

Child labour uncovered in Apple's supply chain | Technology | The Guardian


China – stopchildlabor


As for CNC work being button pushing, sure, if someone sets it up for you. And you don't finish the product, looking for burrs and correcting imperfections. and never ever have change and recalibrate any lathes/bits/equipment.

Yup. Push a button, a wild mod magically appears.

This is getting so far out there I think it's trolling.

 

[Equilibrium]

Do you really think that a young child has the technical knowledge and mathmatical skill to program and calibrate these machines? Push a button, yes. Be a machinist, no

 

[Equilibrium]

Good for you.
I'll be as dramatic as I want.

I'm sure you will...

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

An unmarked copper tube with two caps and a switch is just that. A tube with two caps and a switch. Not much you can do about that.

Your right in that there isn't much I can do about it ... But if it's the copper mod patterned after a Nemesis we are talking about, it's a stolen design logo or not.

Maurice

 

[Equilibrium]

Your right in that there isn't much I can do about it ... But if it's the copper mod patterned after a Nemesis we are talking about, it's a stolen design logo or not.

Maurice

I agree. I will never buy a clone that has the original makers name, logo or serial numbers on it. A tube that may resemble an original design, yes.

 

[NathanielFT]

People will get a conscience conveniently when it suits them. When you're slamming clone mod buyers on the basis of child labour, your conveniently forgetting about all of your favourite brands who've been associated with child labour, human trafficking and slavery including Microsoft, Hersheys, Nike, Primark, Samsung, Apple, Nestle, Coca Cola, and Walmart.

People should feel ashamed trying to take the moral high ground against others when they are the ones who are either ignorant and clueless, or just plain don't care about the realities of the point they are trying and failing to make

Got a clone? Good for you, vape on! Got an original? lucky you, vape on! Got some preachy biased unsupported pseudo-intellectual BS to share on as fact? Piss off

 

[tj99959]

Your right in that there isn't much I can do about it ... But if it's the copper mod patterned after a Nemesis we are talking about, it's a stolen design logo or not.

Maurice

What are you talking about!?! Every bottom button mod made is a "stolen design" of Trogs design (ca. 2008)

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

People will get a conscience conveniently when it suits them. When you're slamming clone mod buyers on the basis of child labour, your conveniently forgetting about all of your favourite brands who've been associated with child labour, human trafficking and slavery including Microsoft, Hersheys, Nike, Primark, Samsung, Apple, Nestle, Coca Cola, and Walmart.

I support child labor, if the little crumb muncher wants to earn his or her keep, get to work ... Most of these companies go to great lengths to prevent the 1st world population from seeing how the products they consume are made.

Fact of the matter is people who are too tight with their money, too poor yet feel entitled to the better things in life, and just plain old greed drive the creation of clone markets, just as they do child labor, human trafficking and indentured servitude.

Today we are chatting about mods, made by people who stole the design, and offer them for a fraction of the original cost. Part of that conversation will naturally come to how is it possible to reduce the cost of a mod to $16 shipped halfway round the world to your door. I certainly can't ship it back for that. To contrast that we also look at why a mod might cost what it does, why $140+ is in fact a very reasonable price. The vast differential between the two prices for what may very well be a nearly identical pair of devices is what causes us to question either side. Are the modders charging too much? Are the clone prices more reflective of actual costs?

We have talked about why people buy the clones, and why they don't need to buy clones to vape. This evolves into claims of entitlement and counter claims that those who buy originals are flaunting status symbols.

The slamming, your term not mine, is arguably justified by each side.

When Microsoft, Hersheys, Nike, Primark, Samsung, Apple, Nestle, Coca Cola, and Walmart start marketing mods we can seriously drill down on them and the folks who shop there.

People should feel ashamed trying to take the moral high ground against others when they are the ones who are either ignorant and clueless, or just plain don't care about the realities of the point they are trying and failing to make

Feel ashamed about taking the moral high ground ... are you serious? Few people in this world are the epitome of morality and integrity, but that does not mean we should not make every effort to improve upon our less than perfect selves.

It would be nice to see everyone flocking toward the moral high ground, yet in reality many folks are more interested in their own personal gain than how that gain effects others.

Got a clone? Good for you, vape on! Got an original? lucky you, vape on! Got some preachy biased unsupported pseudo-intellectual BS to share on as fact? Piss off

Luck has little to do with it

Maurice

 

[Myk]

Top three google results.

Anyone trying to dispute this is more than a little out of touch. it's well documented. I also witnessed it. As for reporting it, the cops will round up kids who run off from the town factory. It's worse in the country than the city.


https://sites.google.com/a/tapa.tp.edu.tw/modern-day-slavery/child-labor/child-labor-in-china

Child labour uncovered in Apple's supply chain | Technology | The Guardian


China – stopchildlabor


As for CNC work being button pushing, sure, if someone sets it up for you. And you don't finish the product, looking for burrs and correcting imperfections. and never ever have change and recalibrate any lathes/bits/equipment.

Yup. Push a button, a wild mod magically appears.

This is getting so far out there I think it's trolling.

You didn't happen to look at those links did you? Textiles, glass blowing, electronics and toys. NOT heavy machinery.

It takes one person to make the design programs for a lot of machines. That's not the one pulling pieces out and putting new material in unless it's a very tiny shop who for some unknown and probably unskilled entitled reason decided they need CNC to do one off parts.
I did talk about measuring and recalibrating, changing bits, etc. Seems you read what you are commenting on as well as you read those links you posted.

My brother-in-law changes bits and recalibrates. He doesn't write the programs. I've seen his work station.
I also know the guy at another shop who does the programs.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

What are you talking about!?! Every bottom button mod made is a "stolen design" of Trogs design (ca. 2008)

The idea of a button fired battery holder may well have been adapted from flashlights and brought to market by the designer of that device, however the number of ways one can bring an idea to fruition is nearly unlimited and each device can and often is unique even if the idea and functionality is the same.

Similar to fractured rocks made into cutting tools can be knives, but a knife is not a stolen design of a fractured rock cutting tool.

Maurice

 

[tj99959]

The idea of a button fired battery holder may well have been adapted from flashlights and brought to market by the designer of that device, however the number of ways one can bring an idea to fruition is nearly unlimited and each device can and often is unique even if the idea and functionality is the same.

Similar to fractured rocks made into cutting tools can be knives, but a knife is not a stolen design of a fractured rock cutting tool.

Maurice

Why did I know that you would respond attempting to justify your stance on the issue.

Now we all do have to admit that GG was right. The design concept did in fact become the future of vaping.