PDIB's Making MODs!

[glassgal]

oh, i flavour my juice at about 20% and lung hit if i am showing off. I suppose i'm going to die.

This lungs and water thing has always perplexed me - lungs have to be wet to function at all and the advice to drink lots when vaping is because PG absorbs water from your body. Nobody ever drowned from vaping.

T

Well, just don't vape butter flavors at 20%.

We're all going to die, we just want to do it later rather than sooner. I care more about alzheimers than dying... that's way worse.

I think most of the flavors are OK. Consider that if you SMELL something through your nose, it's going INTO your lungs anyway, breathing takes air into the lungs, and you smell it because it passes your nose on the way to your lungs.

While some dyes are dangerous, there's very little dye in most juices, and I haven't read about specific problems with dyes. I figure that if there were real health risks, we'd have heard of lawsuits for it, like the popcorn man. If you don't, then odds are not good that it's very risky. At least that's how I see it...

I did find an alarmist list of dyes: Food Additives and colors

Grain of salt here, there are some really paranoid 'lists' on the internet, warning of dire consequences for nearly everything, which if you actually followed the advice, you would drink distilled water only, live in the artic so your collected rainwater couldn't be contaminated. and could eat no food.

 

[sedge]

Here's a thread on tubing. Much info

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forum...Tubing-Tygon-Primochill-Masterkleer-Koolance

 

[glassgal]

I bought this tubing to replace mine.

Tygon® 2475 High-Purity Tubing | U.S. Plastic Corp.

Part number 57576.

It's difficult to get installed because it's not silicone. The silicone tubing that comes with it absorbs everything it comes in contact with, including tung oil...

Wow... that sounds great!!! Difficult to install how? And is this exactly the same size as the current tube? Maybe a slightly larger size would be easier?

 

[supertrunker]

So a cloud from Chernobyl drifts over the artic....

I have long made the argument that as an ex-smoker i have probably done more lasting damage to my lungs over the years that i smoked than i could possibly do by vaping, which is an activity at least 100 times safer by all best estimates.

Since i make my own juice, it's my fault if i mess it up! Cases of popcorn lung do not occur with a one-off exposure, but over a long period of time, in the same way that cotton workers breathing in cotton fibres all day in mills used to suffer lung diseases related to that....but i bet half of you use cotton wicks!

The world is basically a hypochondriac's paradise and it's just a pity that worrying about every minute perceived hazard wastes the time that could be better used having a good time!

T

 

[glassgal]

So a cloud from Chernobyl drifts over the artic....

I have long made the argument that as an ex-smoker i have probably done more lasting damage to my lungs over the years that i smoked than i could possibly do by vaping, which is an activity at least 100 times safer by all best estimates.

Since i make my own juice, it's my fault if i mess it up! Cases of popcorn lung do not occur with a one-off exposure, but over a long period of time, in the same way that cotton workers breathing in cotton fibres all day in mills used to suffer lung diseases related to that....but i bet half of you use cotton wicks!

The world is basically a hypochondriac's paradise and it's just a pity that worrying about every minute perceived hazard wastes the time that could be better used having a good time!

T

I agree with most of that, and every time I read some alarming thing, I have to check myself (and more facts), to see if I'm reacting like an alarmist.

What I don't agree with is the one off. If you love butter flavors, you aren't going to vape it once and walk away. You are going to vape it for years. Meaning you are going to be inhaling diacetyl for years... and you can get alzheimers and all kinds of other things because you like it. It's obviously a cumulative effect, because it takes years for you to get these problems. So if you only want to taste the butter, that's one thing, but we all vape a given juice more than once if we get some.

 

[Akdare]

Wow... that sounds great!!! Difficult to install how? And is this exactly the same size as the current tube? Maybe a slightly larger size would be easier?

It is stiffer than the silicone...So harder to get on the copper tube that goes to the 510. It's also a small space, and an awkward angle. I finally stretched a quarter inch or so over a conical dremel bit to stretch it out a bit. Once on, it works very well. Does not absorb flavors at all.

It is exactly the same size.

 

[e30ernest]

I agree with most of that, and every time I read some alarming thing, I have to check myself (and more facts), to see if I'm reacting like an alarmist.

What I don't agree with is the one off. If you love butter flavors, you aren't going to vape it once and walk away. You are going to vape it for years. Meaning you are going to be inhaling diacetyl for years... and you can get alzheimers and all kinds of other things because you like it. It's obviously a cumulative effect, because it takes years for you to get these problems. So if you only want to taste the butter, that's one thing, but we all vape a given juice more than once if we get some.

I don't think any of the reputable e-liquid manufacturers still use Diacetyl do they? At least the brand I commonly use (Dekang) explicitly claims they don't.

FAQ

I like how they list the ingredients they use (including flavoring) on their juice bottles along with the percentages contained. Whether it's accurate or not I don't know for sure. I don't know what these flavor components are anyway.

 

[Megan Kogijiki Ratchford]

So a cloud from Chernobyl drifts over the artic....

I have long made the argument that as an ex-smoker i have probably done more lasting damage to my lungs over the years that i smoked than i could possibly do by vaping, which is an activity at least 100 times safer by all best estimates.

Since i make my own juice, it's my fault if i mess it up! Cases of popcorn lung do not occur with a one-off exposure, but over a long period of time, in the same way that cotton workers breathing in cotton fibres all day in mills used to suffer lung diseases related to that....but i bet half of you use cotton wicks!

The world is basically a hypochondriac's paradise and it's just a pity that worrying about every minute perceived hazard wastes the time that could be better used having a good time!

T

In my chosen profession (pottery instructor and professional potter) I will see more harm in my lungs from the black lung I'm working on due to silicosis as well as the off-gassing from the kilns of the clay containing manganese dioxide. Plus I'm an ex-smoker with MS. That last one will spell my doom long before the rest will claim me as a prize.

 

[glassgal]

I don't think any of the reputable e-liquid manufacturers still use Diacetyl do they? At least the brand I commonly use (Dekang) explicitly claims they don't.

FAQ

I like how they list the ingredients they use (including flavoring) on their juice bottles along with the percentages contained. Whether it's accurate or not I don't know for sure. I don't know what these flavor components are anyway.

Well... as far as I know, there's no safer substitute for it?? It IS the butter flavor... horse of a different color.

Lets look at the only substitute to it, Pentanedione.

So here's what the CDC has to say about both:
CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

Effects on rats for both:
diacetyl
Subsequent studies have helped to clarify the role of diacetyl. Toxicology studies have shown that vapors from heated butter flavorings can cause damage to airways in animals (Hubbs et al, 2002). Studies in both rats and mice demonstrate that the cells lining airways can be damaged by inhaling diacetyl vapors as a single agent exposure in both acute and subchronic studies (Hubbs et al, 2008; Morgan et al, 2008). In mice, aspiration of diacetyl alone caused a pattern of injury that replicates some of the features of human obliterative bronchiolitis (Morgan et al, 2008).

Pentanedione
The alpha-diketone, 2,3-pentanedione, has received attention as a flavoring substitute for diacetyl. It is also known as acetyl propionyl or by CAS number 600-14-6. It is structurally very similar to diacetyl since 2,3-pentanedione is a 5-carbon alpha-diketone and diacetyl is a 4-carbon alpha-diketone. Published reports on the toxicity of 2,3-pentanedione were first published in abstract form in 2010 (Hubbset al. 2010b; Morgan et al. 2010). A recent NIOSH peer-reviewed publication documents that acute inhalation exposures to 2,3-pentanedione cause airway epithelial damage that is similar to diacetyl in laboratory studies (Hubbset al. 2012). In 2-week inhalation studies in rats, NIEHS researchers found that 2,3-pentanedione caused proliferation of fibrous connective tissue in the walls of airways and projections of fibrous connective tissue sometimes extended into the air passageways (Morganet al. 2012b). Preliminary data suggest that repeated exposures to either 2,3-pentanedione or diacetyl can cause airway fibrosis in rats (Morganet al. 2012a). In the acute inhalation study of 2,3-pentanedione, changes in gene expression were noted in the brain (Hubbset al. 2012). Preliminary data suggests that diacetyl can cause changes in the central nervous system that are similar to those caused by 2,3-pentanedione (Hubbset al. 2010a). As a group, these publications raise concerns that the toxicologic effects of diacetyl may be shared with alpha-diketones which are close structural analogs.

Sooo... they have the same effect. So why use Pentanedione as a substitute for diacetyl? Because... THEY HAVEN"T BEEN SUED FOR IT YET. It's a new substitute... that does exactly the same thing to the human body.

Note that Osha doesn't care what the substitute is... it's warning applies to ANY butter flavor:
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/flavoringlung/diacetyl_worker_alert.html

How about not vaping butter?

 

[glassgal]

It is stiffer than the silicone...So harder to get on the copper tube that goes to the 510. It's also a small space, and an awkward angle. I finally stretched a quarter inch or so over a conical dremel bit to stretch it out a bit. Once on, it works very well. Does not absorb flavors at all.

It is exactly the same size.

GREAT help, thanks for the tip, I'm going to get some... has anyone suggested Rob switch??

 

[e30ernest]

How about not vaping butter?

After reading all that stuff here, I'm glad that I don't.

 

[glassgal]

After reading all that stuff here, I'm glad that I don't.

Well, even knowing that, I still vape some custards, creams and fruits that have a tint of that buttery flavor... (this should be nothing new to anyone, we were all smokers... and we knew darn well what we were doing).

It's like not eating bacon!! I love bacon!!

BUT!!! I do feel guilt and try to limit my exposure. I don't think most tobacco blends are a problem ironically.

 

[supertrunker]

i don't - i worry about the cholesterol, so i stick to high fibre liquids like graham cracker and apple!

T

 

[glassgal]

i don't - i worry about the cholesterol, so i stick to high fibre liquids like graham cracker and apple!

T

Well... there's one thing ALL of us ex-smokers have in common by nature... none of us care particularly much about warnings... obviously. LOL!

But with vaping, there's sooooooo many flavors that are safe. It's like being told that 1 brand of cigs cause cancer and the others don't. Would you knowingly go choose that brand when you can be just as happy with a different one?

 

[Xobeloot]

Silly kids and your butter... I stick with Parkay... After all, something originally formulated to kill chickens HAS to be healthier than something made from milk.


Sent from the zoo using Tapatypo 2

 

[supertrunker]

My understanding was that the only flavour regarded as 'safe' is menthol, since that is the only one that has ever been used in a medical context and been subject to such an evaluation.

Of course - compared to cigarettes, a lot of things are safer, but the law of averages is not medical opinion (although it applies pretty well to our local hospital!)

T

 

[glassgal]

Silly kids and your butter... I stick with Parkay... After all, something originally formulated to kill chickens HAS to be healthier than something made from milk.

Sent from the zoo using Tapatypo 2

HRM! I wonder if the part of Parkay that smells like butter is what they formulated to kill chickens with? LOL!

 

[ValHeli]

Here's one for Curly Koa fans

Dimension: 1 3/8" x 2 1/4" x 4 5/8"

 

[supertrunker]

Silly kids and your butter... I stick with Parkay... After all, something originally formulated to kill chickens HAS to be healthier than something made from milk.


Sent from the zoo using Tapatypo 2

I thought that was flooring but i typoed it in Google.

I like the Koa VH.

T

 

[glassgal]

My understanding was that the only flavour regarded as 'safe' is menthol, since that is the only one that has ever been used in a medical context and been subject to such an evaluation.

Of course - compared to cigarettes, a lot of things are safer, but the law of averages is not medical opinion (although it applies pretty well to our local hospital!)

T

Maybe... I lean heavily towards essential oil blends. First, because essential oils ARE NOT OIL (you can do lung damage vaping oils, aka fatty acids, due to the 'fat' molecules). I think all the warnings about ESSENTIAL oils are silly... they are confused. On the other hand, oil (particularly fractionated coconut oil) is often used as a dilutant for unwary consumers in retail essential oils. THAT may be the biggest reason for the warning. Either way, I have wholesale/distributor/distiller level contacts for that, so mine's not diluted.

Consider that essential oils have been continuously used for nearly 4000 years (found intact and still smelly in King Tut's 3000 year old tomb)... via inhalation, particularly cinnamon anise, clove, eucalyptus, lemon and yes... mint (menthol is derived from). Consider aromatherapy, Vicks Vapor rub, Vicks cold blend for vaporizers (the steam machines for colds/flu), all of which are intended to end up in your lungs. So much misinformation in vaping.

Interesting tidbit... star anise chemicals are the active ingredient for Tamiflu. It's pretty bizarre to say that you can't vape anise essential oil (but you can't vape anise essential oil that's been diluted with oil, and who knows what fake anise oil is).

"Safe" is a very relative term too.. you can ingest snake venom, but it's not a good thing in your bloodstream. You can wash things in bleach, but you can't drink it. You can eat fake butter flavored popcorn... but you can't smell it... LOL!