"PelosiCare" was Unveiled today you can read the bill here

[LisaLisa]

Oh boy, I might have to change my stance on this. I was all for the government health care until I just found out that the IRS will be responsible for overseeing the whole program and everything is going to be tied into your tax returns and the IRS will audit you if they don't like your insurance plan and the IRS will impose fines on you and basically make your life a living hell.

I had no idea that the IRS would be involved, the only government agency that basically has total immunity and the most feared in this country. But now that I do know this, I don't want the whole thing. I'd rather live with no health care rather then have the IRS in all my business and controlling every aspect of my life. I think that's worse then having no insurance!

 

[olderthandirt]

Oh boy, I might have to change my stance on this. I was all for the government health care until I just found out that the IRS will be responsible for overseeing the whole program ...

I think that's worse then having no insurance!

As much as I want to see some form of reform, what Lisa said.
My biggest fear with what appears to be proposed is the penalty aspect. Something to the effect of, get insurance or be assessed a fine. Which translates to - Required to purchase something that will cost enough that I'll no longer be able to pay my mortgage or, keep my home but be fined because I can't afford the insurance?

Earlier in this thread I asked if there was some means of getting an unbiased distillation of the bill. No takers yet. I'd really like to have a better grasp on what is actually being proposed but the size and language of the thing simply defeats me

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I understand how you feel olderthandirt. The problem with "what does it say" is that nobody, including those who formulated it, can tell us. Also, not a single lawmaker who'll be voting on it can tell us. My guess is that hardly, if any, will read it. They pick and choose a topic, pull it apart and use that as a defensive position for whether they voted yeh or ney. I certainly don't understand it, but I see things like Lisalisa and I feel like, eventially, they'll hold the keys to my life and I'll no longer be in control. My beef is the public option, they make it sound like an alternative to conventional insurance. I think the government should regulate insurance companies in the respect to the current form, like preexisting conditions. Insurance companies shouldn't dictate the quality of our lives. As long as the public option is excluded I think we can get there, but our government is pushing for more control and the only way they can do this is with the public option. And, yes, you won't have a choice to opt out or you're breaking the law. In the long run, I've lost my basic freedom to choose and someone else will STILL be dictating my quality of life.

 

[SLDS181]

What I still don't understand is why, all of the sudden, we make this rapid jump - people (this is a general 'people', btw) seem to think that everything must be all or nothing. Leave things as the way they are, or a single-payer system.

Why is it we aren't fixing the broken system by regulating the industry, as opposed to replacing it with a system that would be horrible for so many?

But of course, if you take this position, then you hate the poor, are a neo-con, and a bible-thumping ......, right? Even if you aren't.

 

[martha1014]

My husband who does not have insurance is neither young, healthy, invincable or an illegal immigrant just could not get coverage. He is a regular 57 year old who retired early with hypertension. He is going to have insurance shortly as he does some computer work for my son's company who has a group policy for his employees and will be offering it to my husband free.

How lucky he is. Most people don't have this opportunity and it leaves them high and dry.

Freedom does not mean everything is free. I agree with you when you say the government can pay for other countries why not ours. Amen.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

What I still don't understand is why, all of the sudden, we make this rapid jump - people (this is a general 'people', btw) seem to think that everything must be all or nothing. Leave things as the way they are, or a single-payer system.

It isn't really the people, it's the lawmakers. They seem to have a "ALL OR NOTHING" mindset and that's how we see it. When the public option was thrown out before everybody softened up. Now it's back, lines are drawn in the sand and it's "ALL OR NOTHING AGAIN".

Why is it we aren't fixing the broken system by regulating the industry, as opposed to replacing it with a system that would be horrible for so many?

Yes, why aren't we? To me, fixing a flat tire makes more sense than scrapping the car and buying a new one.


But of course, if you take this position, then you hate the poor, are a neo-con, and a bible-thumping ......, right? Even if you aren't.

It's a shame, ain't it?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Freedom does not mean everything is free.


Freedom is never free. What are we willing to give for freedom? All? Some? A little?


I agree with you when you say the government can pay for other countries why not ours. Amen.

You're right about how the government spends our money as they please. Maybe if they'd shrink down some and be accountable to the ones who pay them we'd all have enough money for healthcare.

 

[Surf Monkey]

"All or nothing"? Are you kidding me? This bill has been so compromised that the only significant reform left in the package is an incredibly watered down (and arguably mortally wounded by the optional sunset provision) public option that's practically meaningless. The issue here isn't "all or nothing" but "barely anything or nothing" with Democrats arguing for barely anything and Republicans arguing for nothing at all.

The bottom line is that the system as it stands right now is a disaster and the parties have no real intention of doing anything significant to fix it. I hope you all stay healthy in the years to come, because if you have the bad fortune of getting sick or growing old you'll be at the mercy of a ruthless private system that sees you as nothing but an open wallet.

 

[Surf Monkey]

You're right about how the government spends our money as they please. Maybe if they'd shrink down some and be accountable to the ones who pay them we'd all have enough money for healthcare.

Hogwash. How much do you think it costs to buy health care? Even if taxes were completely abolished today there would still be millions of Americans who couldn't afford insurance.

 

[geeker]

I wonder how many people who can't afford health insurance/healthcare CAN afford cell phones for the whole family,flat-screen TV's, internet access and iPods. It all comes down to priorities.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I wonder how many people who can't afford health insurance/healthcare CAN afford cell phones for the whole family,flat-screen TV's, internet access and iPods. It all comes down to priorities.

That's bunk. People don't like to think about it, but there is a pretty large working poor class in America. These people can barely afford to feed their families, let alone pay hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance. Those lucky enough to get health coverage as part of their benefit package at work have no idea how costly it is for those who don't and for the self employed like me. The idea that anyone without adequate health insurance is just making the wrong choices with their money is offensive IMO.

 

[Stephaniems]

OMG I might be having a heart attack or a stroke or something....."sobs" I hate to even say it but for once I agree with Surf Monkey. I may need a drink now. LMAO

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hogwash. How much do you think it costs to buy health care? Even if taxes were completely abolished today there would still be millions of Americans who couldn't afford insurance.

Hey, Surf, thought you'd never show up. In regard to that statement, you'd need to go back many, many years to understand how Medicare and Medicade were set-up and the effect they've had on the direction our healthcare system. I know it's hard to believe, but it wasn't until after that HMO's and insurance companies started to dictate. Government intervention started it all. Really. I remember those days. Ah, the memmories. And by the way, we don't wash our pigs in Indiana.

 

[geeker]

That's bunk. People don't like to think about it, but there is a pretty large working poor class in America. These people can barely afford to feed their families, let alone pay hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance. Those lucky enough to get health coverage as part of their benefit package at work have no idea how costly it is for those who don't and for the self employed like me. The idea that anyone without adequate health insurance is just making the wrong choices with their money is offensive IMO.

I didn't say everyone w/o healthcare does this. Go to your local department of health clinic and check out the electronic gadgets in use by people who are in line to see a physician that THEY do not have to pay. I have literally been in line behind a person buying groceries with food stamps to go with the flat-screen TV in their cart. THAT'S what's BUNK.

 

[Brewster 59]

What I still don't understand is why, all of the sudden, we make this rapid jump - people (this is a general 'people', btw) seem to think that everything must be all or nothing. Leave things as the way they are, or a single-payer system.

Why is it we aren't fixing the broken system by regulating the industry, as opposed to replacing it with a system that would be horrible for so many?

But of course, if you take this position, then you hate the poor, are a neo-con, and a bible-thumping ......, right? Even if you aren't.

This guy hits the nail on the head, fixing the current system is the way to go. The problem is how to do that, there are no simple solutions to this problem. I for one am not in favor of Govt run health insurance. Govt does nothing efficiently except waste money. I also want to know who is going to pay for this programn. How is forcing people barely making it from pay check to paycheck and can only afford the bare essentials to pay for health coverage going to help them?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

That's bunk. People don't like to think about it, but there is a pretty large working poor class in America. These people can barely afford to feed their families, let alone pay hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance. Those lucky enough to get health coverage as part of their benefit package at work have no idea how costly it is for those who don't and for the self employed like me. The idea that anyone without adequate health insurance is just making the wrong choices with their money is offensive IMO.

No, it's true. Not all, but everybody knows people who pay $200/mo. for a cell and the money should go elsewhere. I've known those who struggle to keep the electricity on so they can continue to watch cable or satellite. Drive an SUV they can't afford, buy a house they can't afford, buy drugs they can't afford, and on and on. Brother, I've always lived on that side of the street and those are my neighbors.

 

[Brewster 59]

No, it's true. Not all, but everybody knows people who pay $200/mo. for a cell and the money should go elsewhere. I've known those who struggle to keep the electricity on so they can continue to watch cable or satellite. Drive an SUV they can't afford, buy a house they can't afford, buy drugs they can't afford, and on and on. Brother, I've always lived on that side of the street and those are my neighbors.

Hey Victor love your posts. what you say can and does happen. These people are also the ones who feel entitled to have the Govt subsidize their bills. But what about the people who have some pride and are just getting by, who are living responsibly should they be forced to pay 100's of dollars per month for health insurance and go without eating?

 

[Stephaniems]

Yep that would solve some of the obesity problems too, Ok that was a joke for anyone who couldnt tell!

 

[olderthandirt]

No, it's true. Not all, but everybody knows people who pay $200/mo. for a cell and the money should go elsewhere. I've known those who struggle to keep the electricity on so they can continue to watch cable or satellite. Drive an SUV they can't afford, buy a house they can't afford, buy drugs they can't afford, and on and on. Brother, I've always lived on that side of the street and those are my neighbors.

Hmm, my side of the street as well. Hey neighbor!
Enjoy the manner in which you choose your words Twisted. Thoughtful, reasoned, non-inflammatory. Welcome change from some o' the more strident voices around here.

And SLDS really does hit it on the head. I'M gonna need a drink after the following statement... several Republicans did in fact hold forth for a structured, step by step approach to revamping the insurance mess. And yes, they were held to be lacking in compassion for those of us without.

HUGE shudder, I actually said that

The shotgun approach that President Obama has embarked on doesn't seem to have much chance of success. Would have been nice if there had instead been step-by-step approach taken.

ah well, there's a bar 3 blocks down on the right...

 

[Surf Monkey]

I didn't say everyone w/o healthcare does this. Go to your local department of health clinic and check out the electronic gadgets in use by people who are in line to see a physician that THEY do not have to pay. I have literally been in line behind a person buying groceries with food stamps to go with the flat-screen TV in their cart. THAT'S what's BUNK.

But that's purely anecdotal evidence and therefore not very relevant. As I said before, there are millions of working poor in America, a very large percentage of whom have no or very little health insurance. These are people who pay very little in taxes to begin with. If you remove a, say, $2,000.00 a year tax burden, that's not going to pay for a $3,600.00 (that's the cheapest policy my insurance company offers) a year policy, particularly in light of the fact that policies with that low of a premium have deductibles of 5k or more. It's a simple matter of math. A $2,000.00 tax break =/= a minimum $8,500.00 per year outlay for insurance and deductible. And that's assuming that the low income person even pays that much into the system. Many pay even less in taxes.