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[DC2]

what what what??

 

[KattMamma]

yep that's exactly what I heard in my head as I read FT's post (I love south park)

 

[FlamingoTutu]

19,774

what what what??

I guess my brain inserted "Reynolds," but think that's what was meant. Here's the post. No online sales to Arkansas? | Page 5 | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Lessifer]

19,780 I wonder if some people still think being deemed a tobacco product isn't such a bad thing...

 

[KattMamma]

Maybe if you ask them to see if they can order tobacco products online it would open their eyes.

Or quote the tax rates and/or regulations passed by some states that are already treating it as tobacco.

 

[KattMamma]

19,774

I guess my brain inserted "Reynolds," but think that's what was meant. Here's the post. No online sales to Arkansas? | Page 5 | E-Cigarette Forum

Truth is, RJ provide this bill to Arkansas, just as they provided similar bills to other states around the country. Lawmakers tweak were and there, having no idea what they're tweaking, then you end up with something that makes little sense and contradicts itself repeatedly. We spent days and hours looking at the plain language, as did others in the state, and were still left with a mess. We talked with several lawmakers and officials, before and after this passed, and they all had a different take. One senator even picked up the phone to call his friend, one of the state's tobacco lobbyist, and asked what this was about. He was told "there's a concern because right now it's legal to sell this stuff to anyone, any age." I told the senator Arkansas passed a law two years ago making it illegal to sell to minors.

If any Arkansans (or anybody else) is interested, I uploaded a marked-up doc of the bill we did last spring. The first notation is on page 4. The text that originally accompanied the doc is:

SB978 Notated for Discussion, Analysis: This is NOT an official, definitive or authoritative document in any way (that's left to judges, who may even disagree among themselves). It's intended only to encourage discussion, ideas and maybe a course of action. The PDF is notated with "sticky" notes using "plain meaning rule" to try to decode or clarify some of the more concerning clauses. If there's an interest, we can upload the word doc to Google docs for shared editing or comments.

A document this complex takes time to analyze, and we shouldn't expect to understanding it in one or two readings - or only one or two sets of eyes or one authority. We'll update the doc as we get more professional input, but it's IMPORTANT the industry approach this as a collective whole to help the INDUSTRY take action and move forward. Not all vapor businesses are the same. One may be fine with a particular set of restrictions while another may have to close their doors.

Legislatures are passing laws on an industry that makes no sense to them and as a result, the regulation makes no sense, is ambiguous or even contradictory - to it's own language and to what lawmakers may have stated or intended. Of the three primary methods used to interpret law - textual, historical and functional, textual is always first and foremost. Since there is no history yet, and the function is ulterior, or ambiguous at best, we're left with the text. Yes, we have a video of the verbal "summary" of the bill, but the video will not be part of Arkansas code.​

For the record, wholesalers and manufacturers CAN sell to end consumers PROVIDED they obtain a Retailer's permit. They CANNOT sale to end consumers via their wholesale permit. We originally were applying for all three permits, but were told to only get a manufacturer and a retail (manufacturer's permit allows us to sell wholesale, retail permit allows us to sell direct to end consumer).

And this IS a violation of the federal commerce clause, but attorneys we've talked with basically say "forget it." In Arkansas at least (this will get interesting when federal laws trump state laws), these are vapor products falling under ATC regulation along side tobacco products. All existing state laws regulating tobacco do not automatically apply to vapor products. It's wrong to assume that laws preventing online cigarette sales automatically extend to vapor products. At least for the time being...

We all know big corporations help write the laws in this country, to benefit them and hurt their competition. But I'd like to find proof of this one being written by RJR (other than a business owner saying it in a form) as this would seem to be a blatant display of corporations running the gov't there. I'm looking....

 

[KattMamma]

Hmmm... found this... What's that smell? Big tobacco's move on vaping | Arkansas Blog | Arkansas news, politics, opinion, restaurants, music, movies and art

Note that this bill was introduced by Eddie Joe Williams... the end of that article states :

Altria gave at least 60 campaign contributions to Arkansas legislative candidates in 2014, from $250 to the maximum $2,000. Reynolds gve Eddie Joe Williams PAC $5,000 in both 2013 and 2014.

It also says that a lobbyist who works for BT and has ties to RJR - Gilbert Baker - helped Baker with this bill.

 

[mattiem]

only 214 signatures needed to reach 20,000

 

[KattMamma]

It also says that a lobbyist who works for BT and has ties to RJR - Gilbert Baker - helped Baker with this bill.

Typing is hard when you haven't had enough coffee lol

I meant to say:

It also says that a lobbyist who works for BT and has ties to RJR - Gilbert Baker - helped Williams with this bill.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Bump, 'cause this is war!

 

[KattMamma]

War? I'm ready.. got my cat armor right here...

 

[FlamingoTutu]

War? I'm ready.. got my cat armor right here...

That actually looks a lot like mouse armour.

Here's a good article about BT's "defense" against ecigs with our own fearless leader quoted in it. Special Report: When it comes to e-cigs, Big Tobacco is concerned for your health| Reuters Yeah, right, BT has nothing to do with what's going on with the FDA right now.

 

[philoshop]

Statutory regulation in the US today primarily benefits two groups: those who write the laws, and those who enforce them.
The government will always be tasked to enforce those laws, so who better to be tasked with writing them than those with the money to support and maintain the enforcement. ...Render unto Caesar...

Regulatory 'deeming' is about gathering that which is not currently at hand. Fighting against that deeming is a huge undertaking in the best of times, and I applaud all who are currently staying the course.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Bump

 

[KattMamma]

I know that's probably not a whippet, but for some reason it reminded me of this.. (which still makes me giggle every time I see it)

 

[sake1bs]

signed # 19,799

 

[Lessifer]

still moving along, even if at a glacial pace at the moment.

 

[Lessifer]

19,804

 

[DavidOck]

19808....

 

[JimDrock]

Still moving, slowly but surely .

Has anybody heard anything new on whats going on at the FDA?

?