Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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VaPreis

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First let me apologize, because I have not had time to sift through this entire thread, but thought I'd throw my own personal tip in there for installing a microcoil and I also have question about what amount seems to work best when wicking with cotton yarn....

I built a 1/16" ID microcoil using 6 or 7 wraps of 32 gauge Kanthal. I had to scrap my first attempt because I quickly lost my coil position when installing the insulator and metal plug on the bottom of the head. My solution was to leave the coil in the drill bit, then let the bit sit in the slots of the head, and then finally installed the top cap of head while I worked on the insulator and bottom plug. Worked like a charm. Forgive me if this tip is old news.....

My question comes with what's been found to work best when using cotton yarn? Currently, I installed two yarn strands through the coil, and then the other 2 strands on top as flavor wicks.

This setup is vaping fairly well, but the draw seems a little tighter then stock and I've noticed a very slight amount of seepage at the 510....which may be normal for any protank head. I'm reluctant to remove a flavor wick because of the seepage, but think this may be my solution?

Your expertise is appreciated!
 

MacTechVpr

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I built a 1/16" ID microcoil using 6 or 7 wraps of 32 gauge Kanthal. I had to scrap my first attempt because I quickly lost my coil position when installing the insulator and metal plug on the bottom of the head. My solution was to leave the coil in the drill bit, then let the bit sit in the slots of the head, and then finally installed the top cap of head while I worked on the insulator and bottom plug. Worked like a charm. Forgive me if this tip is old news.....

What you said. That's in large part V is what this thread has been about — how best to locate the coil, with what, how. And the thread I joined and refer from, Metalhed's excellent http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/tips-tricks/463771-protank-cotton-rebuild-way-i-do.html which evolved into a contact coil (microcoil) discussion. So yeah, it's the only way to get it right and that the method is repeatable otherwise you can't do it again, nor can anyone reading or listening on this thread. The tools and methods should be straightforward and accessible.

My question comes with what's been found to work best when using cotton yarn? Currently, I installed two yarn strands through the coil, and then the other 2 strands on top as flavor wicks...This setup is vaping fairly well, but the draw seems a little tighter then stock and I've noticed a very slight amount of seepage at the 510....which may be normal for any protank head. I'm reluctant to remove a flavor wick because of the seepage, but think this may be my solution?

Look the KPT and the 510 connect is leaky, period. We've got an isolator that doesn't really seal. Tight enough and you can't use it as a ground. Seal it and it's single-use. We're stuck with it. Or we move on to another atomizer. Those are our choices. I have a love/hate relationship with the Protank but when I want to be mellow, that's the draw I like. When I want to chain hard, the PTK delivers with VW. But the key is keeping it dry. And once it's not…it will continue to flood.

I've found several things can cause leaking. You're right, the first and obvious is too little wick, or seeping into the slot. But another is the opposite but similar, inefficient vaporization. And that can certainly be from too much wick. So simply removing a few fibers on a clean initial installation is a good test of that. Not when the tank's already in trouble. That done V, you can move on to the build itself.

The other cause of inefficient vaporization is shorts. And that's where building tight in a Protank pays off. The more precise and symmetrical the build and coil, the lower the likelihood of hot zones anywhere that would rob the rest or part of the coil of power (heat) and result in excess unvaporized juice which by virtue of gravity accumulates at the 510 connection.

Would strongly suggest you look at my earlier post at hand tension winding as this will help assure you've got a functional and tight contact coil from the start. Legs pointing and wrapping in the right direction and orientation for termination. Angles are important to avoid hot legs and hot end turns. But not to ommit something easily missed is to watch the resistance at installation and refills for any squirrely changes. This could signal a shift of the coil that could produce flooding or that your positive isn't a hanging leg, coming in contact with the housing, shorting. It does not take much. So it's important you have a good coil to begin with and that it goes in (and stays in) right.

Also there is an issue with over-compression of the grommet. It's been discussed here by Trayce and the answer posted on various threads. Too firm seating of the insulator can cause it to bulge obstructing airflow. With both cotton and Nextel which flows extremely well, it becomes more critical as any such obstruction which may not be apparent without close inspection may be the bit too much. So check routinely that the grommet is as flush as possible when you check for the hanging positive leg. Tuck as necessary.

These few things I found constitute the bulk of problems with flooding or dry operation with the additional insufficient top wick (cap shorts). Usually I'd say flood away with the wick, the more the better. I put aside cotton for the Protank and tried yarn too, mostly experiencing over-saturation. There, since I didn't do the great number of builds and rebuilds I have since, I lack some experience with the effect of power. If it's inadequate vaporization, the answer is power! You are simply driving the coil you built at too low a wattage. You've over-spec'd the build at your preferred temperature level. So either bring up the voltage/wattage, or downsize your coil/wick. Don't know how tight the coil wick is (no picture) but you might try removing some fiber from the yarn.

There it is, the roundup of Protank misbehavior. A few thoughts I hope may be helpful in your forming a direction to solve this. I wish I had been more successful. Cotton density in a tank is difficult.

Happy New Year V, and good luck.

:)
 
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VaPreis

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Thank you so much for the detailed response!

As it is, I'm fairly confident with building microcoils, but wicking a protank with cotton is a new experience.

I decided to scrap the previously mentioned build, and instead built a new microcoil at 1/16" diameter with an 8/9 wrap of 30 gauge. I figured a little more surface area would be nice. The bigger difference this time is that I used 3 strands of the yarn through the coil and still maintained 2 strands for flavor wick, but was a bit more careful with their placement when installing the top cap.

I can tell you that the draw is MUCH better, but I doubt it had much to do with my coil build or wicking, and more to do with a problem with the grommet you mention, which until reading your response, I hadn't considered. The truth is that I was just luckier this time, in that respect. So far no gurgle, and a smooth draw. I know now that will pay more attention to the compression of the grommet on the next go round.

BTW, my coil came out to 2Ω....still a bit higher than I wanted, but I think where my difference is coming from is the long legs in the head versus installing a coil in a dripper. Still great on my SVD!

Time for a vape!
 

beckdg

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My question comes with what's been found to work best when using cotton yarn? Currently, I installed two yarn strands through the coil, and then the other 2 strands on top as flavor wicks.

This setup is vaping fairly well, but the draw seems a little tighter then stock and I've noticed a very slight amount of seepage at the 510....which may be normal for any protank head. I'm reluctant to remove a flavor wick because of the seepage, but think this may be my solution?

Your expertise is appreciated!

too much wick too high in the chamber. cuts off air flow as it sucks into the chimney which then draws the air directly through the wick sucking up juice. as you suck the juice directly out of the wick, the wick continues to replace it. when you stop sucking gravity takes over and it seeps down the 510 connection to your mod.

it's really rather simple once you think about it.
 

MacTechVpr

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too much wick too...when you stop sucking gravity takes over and it seeps down the 510 connection to your mod...

I didn't the first go round thinking power would do the job to take up the slack on flow. Never did get it. Moved on to alternatives. Sometimes we fail to observe the obvious.

Nice to see you back Beck. Happy New Year.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Thank you so much for the detailed response!

As it is, I'm fairly confident with building microcoils, but wicking a protank with cotton is a new experience.

I decided to scrap the previously mentioned build, and instead built a new microcoil at 1/16" diameter with an 8/9 wrap of 30 gauge. I figured a little more surface area would be nice. The bigger difference this time is that I used 3 strands of the yarn through the coil and still maintained 2 strands for flavor wick, but was a bit more careful with their placement when installing the top cap.

I can tell you that the draw is MUCH better, but I doubt it had much to do with my coil build or wicking, and more to do with a problem with the grommet you mention, which until reading your response, I hadn't considered. The truth is that I was just luckier this time, in that respect. So far no gurgle, and a smooth draw. I know now that will pay more attention to the compression of the grommet on the next go round.

BTW, my coil came out to 2Ω....still a bit higher than I wanted, but I think where my difference is coming from is the long legs in the head versus installing a coil in a dripper. Still great on my SVD!

Time for a vape!

I never got the density right on the Protank, not with yarn or cotton. It's like instinctive for me on just about everything else. Same coils. Go figure. Glad the yarn adjustment helped. It must be a delight.

I stopped wick winding about a month excepting a few figure-eights for difficult builds. On the Protank I never considered the grommet particularly an issue, except for shorting the hanger, until I joined this thread. Thanks to Trayce. Some excellent feedback and participation here. The workout of issues such as yours. Thanks to all, including you V.

Happy New Year all!

Good luck.

:)
 

M_DuBb716

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Happy new years everyone!! Hopefully my winding/building skills get better in 2014.. I'm still having problems with wrapping my microcoil without any spaces in them, I've only wrapped a few that didn't have spaces. And than I usually mess them up when squeezing them tight with tweezers, after dry-burning the coil.

More practice though. I just built a decent one but haven't dry-fired/squeezed it tight, yet. Cheers everyone! :D :vapor:
 

VaPreis

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Happy new years everyone!! Hopefully my winding/building skills get better in 2014.. I'm still having problems with wrapping my microcoil without any spaces in them, I've only wrapped a few that didn't have spaces. And than I usually mess them up when squeezing them tight with tweezers, after dry-burning the coil.

More practice though. I just built a decent one but haven't dry-fired/squeezed it tight, yet. Cheers everyone! :D :vapor:

I wrap them as tightly as possible by hand. Then I remove it from my drillbit and very gently clamp the coil closed with a small needle nose pliers. While holding the coil with the pliers, torch the coil with a butane torch until it glows red. A perfect microcoil before you ever install it.

So with the inspiration of ECF and this thread, I've rebuilt 2 protank heads with microcoils. One for me. One for the wife.

The build I finally settled on and am enjoying was this:

Microcoil wrapped on 1/16" drillbit. 9 wraps of 30 gauge Kanthal. Coil resistance is about 2Ω on each of them. Full piece of "Peaches and Cream" cotton yarn through the coil, no flavor wick(s). A full piece of the yarn seems to be a perfect fit once threaded through the coil, but required rolling the the end to get it started.

Both are vaping great at 8 watts. One on an MVP2 and the other on my SVD.
 

VaPreis

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The finished product. (I'm proud of this one)

protankmicrocoil.jpgprotankcoilassembled.jpg
 

Moodyfisherman

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What you said. That's in large part V is what this thread has been about — how best to locate the coil, with what, how. And the thread I joined and refer from, Metalhed's excellent http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/tips-tricks/463771-protank-cotton-rebuild-way-i-do.html which evolved into a contact coil (microcoil) discussion. So yeah, it's the only way to get it right and that the method is repeatable otherwise you can't do it again, nor can anyone reading or listening on this thread. The tools and methods should be straightforward and accessible.



Look the KPT and the 510 connect is leaky, period. We've got an isolator that doesn't really seal. Tight enough and you can't use it as a ground. Seal it and it's single-use. We're stuck with it. Or we move on to another atomizer. Those are our choices. I have a love/hate relationship with the Protank but when I want to be mellow, that's the draw I like. When I want to chain hard, the PTK delivers with VW. But the key is keeping it dry. And once it's not…it will continue to flood.

I've found several things can cause leaking. You're right, the first and obvious is too little wick, or seeping into the slot. But another is the opposite but similar, inefficient vaporization. And that can certainly be from too much wick. So simply removing a few fibers on a clean initial installation is a good test of that. Not when the tank's already in trouble. That done V, you can move on to the build itself.

The other cause of inefficient vaporization is shorts. And that's where building tight in a Protank pays off. The more precise and symmetrical the build and coil, the lower the likelihood of hot zones anywhere that would rob the rest or part of the coil of power (heat) and result in excess unvaporized juice which by virtue of gravity accumulates at the 510 connection.

Would strongly suggest you look at my earlier post at hand tension winding as this will help assure you've got a functional and tight contact coil from the start. Legs pointing and wrapping in the right direction and orientation for termination. Angles are important to avoid hot legs and hot end turns. But not to ommit something easily missed is to watch the resistance at installation and refills for any squirrely changes. This could signal a shift of the coil that could produce flooding or that your positive isn't a hanging leg, coming in contact with the housing, shorting. It does not take much. So it's important you have a good coil to begin with and that it goes in (and stays in) right.

Also there is an issue with over-compression of the grommet. It's been discussed here by Trayce and the answer posted on various threads. Too firm seating of the insulator can cause it to bulge obstructing airflow. With both cotton and Nextel which flows extremely well, it becomes more critical as any such obstruction which may not be apparent without close inspection may be the bit too much. So check routinely that the grommet is as flush as possible when you check for the hanging positive leg. Tuck as necessary.

These few things I found constitute the bulk of problems with flooding or dry operation with the additional insufficient top wick (cap shorts). Usually I'd say flood away with the wick, the more the better. I put aside cotton for the Protank and tried yarn too, mostly experiencing over-saturation. There, since I didn't do the great number of builds and rebuilds I have since, I lack some experience with the effect of power. If it's inadequate vaporization, the answer is power! You are simply driving the coil you built at too low a wattage. You've over-spec'd the build at your preferred temperature level. So either bring up the voltage/wattage, or downsize your coil/wick. Don't know how tight the coil wick is (no picture) but you might try removing some fiber from the yarn.

There it is, the roundup of Protank misbehavior. A few thoughts I hope may be helpful in your forming a direction to solve this. I wish I had been more successful. Cotton density in a tank is difficult.

Happy New Year V, and good luck.

:)

Mac.........I read everyone of your posts.........but the small sentence I highlighted you said at the end of this post sums up all that you have given us......I'm all in with outsmarting the "Protank misbehavior".....thanks for what you have given us 2013 and have a fantastic 2014.

Moody
 

M_DuBb716

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That really is a beautiful micro, Va. You should be proud!!
.. Notice how his wraps of coil ended up completely perpendicular to the wick/wick-slots, (I hope this all makes sense).. One of my biggest problems when wrapping my micros, is that I fail to keep my wraps perpendicular with the bit that I am wrapping on - they start slanting diagonally while I'm wrapping, which causes the coil to wrap unevenly, with spaces. This also makes it much harder to compress - since the wraps are at a slight angle, when I compress, the entire microcoil loses it's perfect "tubalar" shape, and goes wonky. Or one the outside wraps pops out and overlaps

I'm still trying to figure out how I can get perfectly even, perpendicular (parallel with eachother) wraps, when building my micros. Hopefully when I get a spool of Kanthal without any dents throughout it, it will make my process much easier.

I hope this all makes sense. By the way, I am now exactly 2 weeks away from my 1-Year Anniversary, of switching from a pack a day to my e-cig!! Vape on
:vapor::2cool:
 

M_DuBb716

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This is Mac's post (#211) from Page 22, on Torsion Winding. Just wanted to quote this so I can re-read it later tonight, and for everybody else. Valuable info right here!

Congratz gentlemen on the excellent builds. And your successful mutual assistance. It becomes easy as you are able to duplicate an effort. Anything less is experiment.

So in that spirit of confirmations, a reconfirmation of the common 1/16" wind ; and, another unique low at 1.75.mm. Both in the last day.

30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. microcoil = 1.81Ω √
30AWG, 8/7 1.75mm i.d. microcoil = 1.85Ω √


Some pics of the latter build and a description of the wind technique.

View attachment 278328View attachment 278329View attachment 278330

The first a snapshot confirmation of the low for the latter…which I found interesting because of the proximity although a very tight wind. And that the 1/16 wind has been confirmed by me so many times along with others on this thread. I expected closer to half a tenth or more difference between the diameters. And what this is telling me is tighter builds may impact the tables I've built so far. The second pic is just a snap of the initial set alongside one of the new grommets from Lightning Vapes. I've yet to do a final burn in on this coil as I caught a burr and caused a lift of an end turn as I centered. No biggie as corrected by burn-in. Just a nuisance.

The reason for the above is that my methodology for the wind has changed in recent weeks as I began to wind under induced tension. Prior I used this technique to stabilize the coil for an initial short burn right on the screwdriver bit. However, recently I've begun to draw the wire from the forceps under as much tension as the wire will sustain while rotating the screwdriver, in this case producing a clockwise wind (rotating away). It took me a bit to find the balance because I did break a few wires initially. Adding the tension though ensures that you have a tight contact coil from the outset. And by overwinding then de-winding excess unjoined end turns you can torch an already completely touching element right on the drill bit. From there a first quench and subsequent if needed burn/s under compression on a medical tweezers. The "hang up" for me has been irregularities on the surface of the various driver sets I use. I've tried to work them out but have to mic so that the work doesn't end up underdimension or misformed. I likely wouldn't see it, but the result might be baffling. A needed effort as I keep catching these snags. For a higher quality set I'm getting ready to hit either…

Otto Frei Call 1-510-832-0355 For Watch Parts
Esslinger Watchmaker Supplies Jewelry Tools Watch Parts & all Watch Bands

And this particular item as it includes four of the most common dimensions I might use on tanks or other RBA's. However, apart from the leverage of the grip it takes quality Horotec tips of other diameters...

Precision Swiss Screwdriver Set with 4 Straight Flat Head Straight Blades Standard Pocket Sized Mini

Just thinking out loud here.

Point being, it's rather easy for a beginner to use this technique, no jig, no other tools, to produce a quality contact coil. And it improves the chances that even without torching the coil may be initially sufficiently coherent that it can be completed by simply firing the bare coil dry on the mod.

Because it's effortlessly simple I've adopted this technique across the board and can knock a half dozen of these out in literally minutes to line them up for assembly. Please let me know if you try this and how it worked out.

Enjoy the vapes fella's and…

Good luck!

:)
 

VaPreis

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That's a beautiful coil and with high PG juice the wicking is probably great, with high VG juice that looks to be too much wick. How's she vape?

Just an update in regards to this setup's wicking....

Curiosity got the best of me, so I filled the tank up with Boba's Bounty (100% VG). It's wicking fantastic. Of course, with Boba's Bounty I will have to dry burn and re-wick it sooner as it loves to gunk up anything you put it in.

I also drilled out the 3 small holes in the protank base to 1/16" in hopes of improving air flow. More air = More vapor. Seems to have worked. The draw is much easier and my living room has a noticeable haze in it.

Currently vaping it on my Nemesis clone with a kick. (wattage unknown, dialed to where I like it) This thing will hold it's own with any of my drippers or RBAs vapor wise. It's been a fun experiment. And a tasty one too. :)
 
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