This has already happened. A popular vendor here told a member their juices were Diacetyl free. The truth came out after the member investigated on her own.
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I checked option 2.
As a side note, the first ejuice I ever bought was from Liberty Flights, since I ordered my Ego from them. All of the bottles I got had what appeared to be all the ingredients and percentages of each listed. So it appears at least one vendor does it.
As a side note, the first ejuice I ever bought was from Liberty Flights, since I ordered my Ego from them. All of the bottles I got had what appeared to be all the ingredients and percentages of each listed. So it appears at least one vendor does it.
Well, sometimes the vendor may not know... and it's not only diacetyl that's an issue. So.... I gave the vendor an out. I wasn't talking about deliberate deception, only ambiguity. The flavor manufacturer needs some disclosure for this to work. There are other threads that discuss if the vendor knows everything in the flavors, testing of juice, etc. I don't really want to turn this thread into that. I just note that your option #1 assumes "full disclosure" without defining it. So, if a vendor says "My juice is diacetyl free" I feel most comfortable purchasing from them. I consider that to be option #1, even if they still don't disclose the formula for the juice, or list other chemicals that are bad. Meh.
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Saying "my juice is diacetyl free" in PM or e-mail is suspicious at best.
Saying that in an open forum like ECF is a bit better.
Putting it up on their website is the least that I'd consider reassuring.
Saying that in an open forum like ECF is a bit better.
Putting it up on their website is the least that I'd consider reassuring.
I'm not going to get involved in about argument about this, but briefly I'll explain my position.
The tone of some of the main players in these discussions has become so unpleasant and exclusionary that I'm almost afraid to say anything about it at all. And a lot of other people feel that way.
I found most of the discussion dramatic and in poor spirit and I don't really believe those who are making it feel that way just want "simple disclosure" like they often repeat that they are. If that were the case, then none of these arguments ever would have happened because I have NEVER seen ANYONE disagree with disclosure.
I don't know what the real goal is - I just see a lot of impotent rage, dismissal of certain facts, dismissal of anyone who disagrees with them, and a very mean attitude to the point where anyone who doesn't share their rage is afraid of being harassed if they want to join the discussion.
And those who haven't simply been silenced or scared away have of course gotten rageful themselves, and everything just turns into a yelling match. This is the only discussion on ECF I have ever seen devolve this way, and it's unfortunate.
Through that unpleasantness, I have tried to just stick to what my research, and that of others, tells me. And this is simply that this is not, in my opinion, something which I am terribly concerned about.
In addition, I think more often than not suppliers didn't know (and still may not know) if their recipes contain it, due to how secretive flavoring companies are about their recipes. I think disclosure is important, but it will be a while before disclosure is meaningful, given the above fact.
Due to how meaningless disclosure currently is, because of the secrecy of flavoring companies, disclosure doesn't mean much to me at this point in time. Not because I don't support disclosure, but because some suppliers who honestly believe their juices don't have it may find out they're wrong in 6 months. We don't know enough for disclosure to be accurate right now. And I think we need to find out more.
When disclosure becomes meaningful, I may take it more seriously as the mark of an ethical company, and at that point, it may influence my decision, even though I personally see no reason to avoid the trace amounts of diacetyl we're talking about.
That conclusion is one I have reached mostly separate from the conversation on the forums, because I don't feel those conversations have been useful for rational discussion.
The tone of some of the main players in these discussions has become so unpleasant and exclusionary that I'm almost afraid to say anything about it at all. And a lot of other people feel that way.
I found most of the discussion dramatic and in poor spirit and I don't really believe those who are making it feel that way just want "simple disclosure" like they often repeat that they are. If that were the case, then none of these arguments ever would have happened because I have NEVER seen ANYONE disagree with disclosure.
I don't know what the real goal is - I just see a lot of impotent rage, dismissal of certain facts, dismissal of anyone who disagrees with them, and a very mean attitude to the point where anyone who doesn't share their rage is afraid of being harassed if they want to join the discussion.
And those who haven't simply been silenced or scared away have of course gotten rageful themselves, and everything just turns into a yelling match. This is the only discussion on ECF I have ever seen devolve this way, and it's unfortunate.
Through that unpleasantness, I have tried to just stick to what my research, and that of others, tells me. And this is simply that this is not, in my opinion, something which I am terribly concerned about.
In addition, I think more often than not suppliers didn't know (and still may not know) if their recipes contain it, due to how secretive flavoring companies are about their recipes. I think disclosure is important, but it will be a while before disclosure is meaningful, given the above fact.
Due to how meaningless disclosure currently is, because of the secrecy of flavoring companies, disclosure doesn't mean much to me at this point in time. Not because I don't support disclosure, but because some suppliers who honestly believe their juices don't have it may find out they're wrong in 6 months. We don't know enough for disclosure to be accurate right now. And I think we need to find out more.
When disclosure becomes meaningful, I may take it more seriously as the mark of an ethical company, and at that point, it may influence my decision, even though I personally see no reason to avoid the trace amounts of diacetyl we're talking about.
That conclusion is one I have reached mostly separate from the conversation on the forums, because I don't feel those conversations have been useful for rational discussion.
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If I knew the liquid had diacetyl in it I wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't by it if it had strychnine in it either. My point is if there are chemicals that aren't good for you I wouldn't use it. Now if it didn't have enough of a certain chemical in it to matter then I would.
I voted that I didn't care a while back...that being said I was recently exposed, on this forum, to one company that knows it flavorart products contain it and will not share which of its products do and don't....I think this is bad and if I had the chance I would go back and vote for the second choice.
I feel safer buying from a vendor with full disclosure. But I 'd vape diacetyl containing liquid.
I feel safer buying from a vendor with full disclosure. But I 'd vape diacetyl containing liquid.
This is exactly why this thread was put in the form of a poll. To explore peoples opinions with minimal back and forth discussions that get nasty sometimes. It won't harm though to have a friendly discussion here.
I have to agree partialy with you on that. For me proving the safety of inhaled flav., PG & VG as well as nic. quality is a more pressing issue than ensuring diacetyl free juice. But the former is easier said than at this point of time and it will take serious and time consuming research to reach that goal. Avoiding diacetyl in your juice seems a realistic goal on the other hand. You'd just need a vendor to disclose which mix has it, whenever they have that kind of info provided to them from the flavorings companies.
Can't blame them if they don't know. But still would expect them to tell their customers "sorry, we asked but we don't have that info yet" instead of denying it or ignoring the whole issue. I would also expect vendors to be more proactive and look for other flavorings manufacturers whenever they don't get enough answers from the current one. I'm sure they'll do that if they are being charged unfair prices for the concentrates.
Absolutely true. But that's not an excuse for nondisclosure.
We also don't know much about the long term effects of the whole vaping thing, but we still caught up with vaping. We go by what seems logical and what we know now, and work for a better knowledge in the future. At the same time we try to avoid known or possible harms as much as possible. We might discover later we were wrong. But this is the only way to go.
Just as an example of an ethical supplier in connection to this discussion:
(and I won't name names because this will be counterproductive to this discussion, so pls. guys don't ask me here or in pm as well)
This supplier would inform clients which of his mixes contain diacetyl. He is always trying to look for alternative flavorings for those mixes that are diacetyl free, and he succeeded in that in few instances. For the other ones he is distilling out diacetyl from his flavorings and although he can't be sure they'd be diacetyl free, but he thinks he minimized the levels as much as possible. Obviously he has some chemistry background.
His stance on diacetyl??? He does not think it's safe at any level and he'll keep working untill all his mixes are diacetyl free.
I got some juice from him. I didn't like the flavors much. But you bet, I'll keep going back to him untill I try all his mixes in the hope I find my regular vape. He impressed me with his knowledge, responsibility and honesty.
Thanks for writing down your thoughts. It's always good to hear other people's opinions especially if sensible and conveyed in a friendly way.
I for one truly loved my ciggs. I began vaping to save what ever is left of my lungs.
Its been great to discover how wonderful vaping can be. If theres bad stuff in what I'm smoking get it out.
kind of a dumb post, (mine)
Its been great to discover how wonderful vaping can be. If theres bad stuff in what I'm smoking get it out.
kind of a dumb post, (mine)
I for one truly loved my ciggs. I began vaping to save what ever is left of my lungs.
Its been great to discover how wonderful vaping can be. If theres bad stuff in what I'm smoking get it out.
kind of a dumb post, (mine)
I don't know, I think it pretty much sums the whole thing up pretty well.
Jus an example of an ethical supplier in connection to this discussion:
(and I won't name names because this will be counterproductive to this discussion, so pls. guys don't ask me here or in pm as well)
This supplier would inform clients which of his mixes contain diacetyl. He is always trying to look for alternative flavorings for those mixes that are diacetyl free, and he succeeded in that in few instances. For the other ones he is distilling out diacetyl from his flavorings and although he can't be sure they'd be diacetyl free, but he thinks he minimized the levels as much as possible. Obviously he has some chemistry background.
His stance on diacetyl??? He does not think it's safe at any level and he'll keep working untill all his mixes are diacetyl free.
I got some juice from him. I didn't like the flavors much. But you bet, I'll keep going back to him untill I try all his mixes in the hope I find my regular vape. He impressed me with his knowledge, responsibility and honesty.[/I]
Sounds like Nick
Geez I didnt even know this poll existed. I voted but I was between 1 and 2 because I dont care if someone uses diacetyl in some flavors as long as I know which ones they are in so I can avoid it if possible. It would be interesting to see the results if many come to vote.
That's why I make my own because I know whats in it.Until venders start listing ingredients I'm only making my own.
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