How long do you need to steep all the other flavors in the Cereal Bites Cheesecake. That .3ml that you add for the HA should not take any longer than the other ingredients. Right? So at least you can still use the bottles you already steeped.
??
Probably a month for the cheesecake. It will have .45ml HA in it. None of my cream has steeped yet.How long do you need to steep all the other flavors in the Cereal Bites Cheesecake. That .3ml that you add for the HA should not take any longer than the other ingredients. Right? So at least you can still use the bottles you already steeped.
??
IDK. It's all a crap shoot at this point. I have one mix with the cream that's 3 weeks old. I may try a bit when it gets to a month.
Okay, here I go...
Above quotes are to show the basic flow of the conversation... as I tried to follow it. I will not try to answer individually; but collectively... kinda-sorta.
First thing I will say is: @FranC you can not use a 1.5% dilution, and vape it at 1.5% strength, unless you vape it without any further dilution. That is just a plain fact.
I understand, and respect, that you, Fran, are not too concerned about being precise and may find further dilution acceptable. I would ask you to consider this a bit longer; as I am thinking differently. See if it makes any sense to you.
My thinking goes something like this: You are looking at HS Italian Cream; as a potent concentrate. In other words; it takes very little to make a difference in a recipe. Therefore, in my manner of thinking, even a small variance is likely to have a noticeable(?) effect. So... while precision may not be mandatory; I do see it being desirable.
A difference between 1% and 1.5%, compared to the overall 100% of the recipe, is only 0.5% total.
However...
The difference between 1% and 1.5%, compared to each other, is a whopping 50% increase. That, in my mind, is a significant increase for a potent ingredient.
Make any sense (so far)?
As Fran is wanting to go to bed, I will pause and post here .
To be continued...
Is the 30ml 1.5% a nicotine blend? If not does diluting a flavoring in a 0mg base allow for pre-steeping?
I never paid attention to what went on with TFA Strawberry's color change when I was 0mg. I suppose I could go do that but it will take a week to see the results.
It has been my thinking that if there's color changing going on, even though TFA Strawberry doesn't need steeped, in those liquids that do it is a similar process. And since TFA Strawberry doesn't change colors in the undiluted flavoring bottle I figure it won't change as a diluted flavoring, or 0mg eliquid.
I'm off to mix. For Science!
I never paid attention to what went on with TFA Strawberry's color change when I was 0mg. I suppose I could go do that but it will take a week to see the results.
It has been my thinking that if there's color changing going on, even though TFA Strawberry doesn't need steeped, in those liquids that do it is a similar process. And since TFA Strawberry doesn't change colors in the undiluted flavoring bottle I figure it won't change as a diluted flavoring, or 0mg eliquid.
I'm off to mix. For Science!
This is what made me stop and not trust my numbers. I thought I had made a mistake. Good to know I did not....Thanks Joel.
0mg TFA Strawberry Day 1: Clear as clear can be.
I mixed this at 10% so if I want to use it for anything after the color change test I know it's .1ml per ml. Wouldn't 10% make it easy to figure out how much of the pre-steeped mix to use?
0mg TFA Strawberry Day 2: It's starting to accept me as its own.
I mixed this at 10% so if I want to use it for anything after the color change test I know it's .1ml per ml. Wouldn't 10% make it easy to figure out how much of the pre-steeped mix to use?
0mg TFA Strawberry Day 2: It's starting to accept me as its own.
Wasn't referencing the nic base (I work similarly on that, different %), but your seed, as Sugar was.
Go off for a couple hours and it's all over!
If I was going to make a diluted "base," with the intent to pre-age a concentrate; I would most likely go no lower than twice (2 times) my expected maximum desired strength. In other words, if I anticipated using HS Italian Cream at no more than 1.5%, I would mix my base at 3%.
This would give me maximum diluent (whatever else is used, besides the HS IC, to make the dilution) for the Italian Cream to interact with, to (hopefully?) encourage best aging results. And, still allow an equal volume of everything else (PG, VG, PEG, nic, and other concentrates) when it comes time to mix.
In theory; this seems to work. I plugged some ingredients in, and created two recipes. One for the "pre-stepped base." And, a second, for using the base in a sample recipe. (For the sample recipe; I the same Cereal Bites Cheesecake recipe, that @Sugar_and_Spice used... found at the top of page 375.)
I should first mention a couple of assumptions I worked under:
1.) As @Myk mentioned, I am unsure what all a concentrate needs to "steep" properly. So, with the mentality of "more is better," I diluted the initial base recipe with a complete blend of PG, VG, and nic.
2.) I was not confident of what nic concentrate base (PG, or VG, or PG/VG ratio), or nic concentrate strength, @FranC uses. I used my normal 100mg/mL VG-based nic... this is likely incorrect.
3.) I couldn't remember what finished nic strength @FranC likes. I guessed at 6%.
This is how the recipes developed. First, I created the one for the base. I made it to be:
3% HS Italian Cream
30% PEG400
30% PG
40% VG
6% 100mg/mL VG nic
Then, I tried building the cheesecake recipe, using the the above base for the Italian Cream component.
Here is where a problem came up. With the 30PEG/30PG/40VG ratio used in the initial base, I could not add all the flavor concentrates, and still hit the same ratio in the finished recipe. There was just too much PG.
So, I rebuilt the base recipe to be VG heavy, and found that 15PEG/15PG/70VG would work. Now, I could add all ingredients, and arrive at a final ratio of 30PEG/30PG/40VG.
Here is what the two final recipes look like.
First, the Italian Cream base recipe:
And, this is the cheesecake recipe:
PLEASE NOTE:
Differences in nic base preferences, and nic strength preferences, will change the recipes.
Also, I did not have all ingredients in my stash; so I subbed the closest I had. This will not affect the recipe; but some of the ingredient names will be incorrect.
This would give me maximum diluent (whatever else is used, besides the HS IC, to make the dilution) for the Italian Cream to interact with, to (hopefully?) encourage best aging results. And, still allow an equal volume of everything else (PG, VG, PEG, nic, and other concentrates) when it comes time to mix.
In theory; this seems to work. I plugged some ingredients in, and created two recipes. One for the "pre-stepped base." And, a second, for using the base in a sample recipe. (For the sample recipe; I the same Cereal Bites Cheesecake recipe, that @Sugar_and_Spice used... found at the top of page 375.)
I should first mention a couple of assumptions I worked under:
1.) As @Myk mentioned, I am unsure what all a concentrate needs to "steep" properly. So, with the mentality of "more is better," I diluted the initial base recipe with a complete blend of PG, VG, and nic.
2.) I was not confident of what nic concentrate base (PG, or VG, or PG/VG ratio), or nic concentrate strength, @FranC uses. I used my normal 100mg/mL VG-based nic... this is likely incorrect.
3.) I couldn't remember what finished nic strength @FranC likes. I guessed at 6%.
This is how the recipes developed. First, I created the one for the base. I made it to be:
3% HS Italian Cream
30% PEG400
30% PG
40% VG
6% 100mg/mL VG nic
Then, I tried building the cheesecake recipe, using the the above base for the Italian Cream component.
Here is where a problem came up. With the 30PEG/30PG/40VG ratio used in the initial base, I could not add all the flavor concentrates, and still hit the same ratio in the finished recipe. There was just too much PG.
So, I rebuilt the base recipe to be VG heavy, and found that 15PEG/15PG/70VG would work. Now, I could add all ingredients, and arrive at a final ratio of 30PEG/30PG/40VG.
Here is what the two final recipes look like.
First, the Italian Cream base recipe:
And, this is the cheesecake recipe:
PLEASE NOTE:
Differences in nic base preferences, and nic strength preferences, will change the recipes.
Also, I did not have all ingredients in my stash; so I subbed the closest I had. This will not affect the recipe; but some of the ingredient names will be incorrect.
I started figuring it up for a 10% flavor dilution (I figure 10% works with everything else and the 10% math makes it easy) but then when I started figuring in a nicotine level since I think that probably has something to do with an age change the math got difficult so I made french fries instead.
That was without PG/VG/PEG getting into the mix.
This is actually a pretty elegant solution; I don't think I would have thought to look at it in this way. Nicely conceived @Sugar_and_Spice!
(Oh; and I agree with your numbers.)As long as Fran wants to mix 30mL recipes, and wants the Italian Cream component to be 1.5%, this would work.
What I am not sure about, is whether there is enough diluent, to permit complete "pre-steeping." I would imagine it is likely better than no aging at all; but I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess. Make a small batch and see... ?
I am sorry I didn't tell you that she didn't need nic/pg/vg calculated. I thought you knew she always premixes her base.
I do so appreciate that you went to all of this work to answer our questions and I know that anyone reading this will benefit from it. However, she wants something that allows her to not always wait 8-9 weeks to steep with the HA. Not sure how she came by that number, but going along with that, she also wants to be able to make multiple recipes from it........so as the convo progressed and all started to come closer together for a solution, I came up with what she asked for(see my post further up this page) that makes sense to us. Because of the differences of % (see my last post) of the overall volume of the bottle compared to each individual useage % I thought my numbers were incorrect. And thus tagged you.
Turns out you confirmed them for me. Thank you........
I wondered that also but she wanted to use 5ml bottles so.....??This is actually a pretty elegant solution; I don't think I would have thought to look at it in this way. Nicely conceived @Sugar_and_Spice!
As long as Fran wants to mix 30mL recipes, and wants the Italian Cream component to be 1.5%, this would work.
What I am not sure about, is whether there is enough diluent, to permit complete "pre-steeping." I would imagine it is likely better than no aging at all; but I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess. Make a small batch and see... ?
I suppose she could use a 10ml bottle using the same ml but then she would have to use 2ml to equal the 1.5% for the bigger bottle.
I hear what you are saying; and as I started reading the conversation between Sugar and Fran, I was thinking that too.
The problem, for me, is Fran is doing this not to make the concentrate easier to work with (the more common reason for dilution), but to try and get a jump on the aging process.
And, my problem is, I don't know what aging really does, or what affects it. Yes, I have read all sorts of theories, hypotheses, basic chemistry and physics principles, and even wild-arsed guessing. But... I don't know. To be honest, I don't think anybody really does. There are just too many chemical combinations, and conditions, to be realistically studied without LOTS of money. And, I have yet to hear any companies willing to fund such research.
Because of all of these unknowns; I don't know how much influence is generated from:
-- time
-- air/oxygen exposure (both off-gassing and oxidation)
-- co-mingling with other chemicals/compounds (and there's lots that may, or may not be happening here)
So, to my thinking, if the goal is: getting the same/similar "steeping" result, as one gets in a traditional recipe. Then, making the "base" as much like the "traditional" only makes sense. That means as many of the same ingredients as reasonably possible, and the dilution as functionally similar (while still allowing for the addition of other ingredients; and still reaching final targeted dilution).
That is why I went as low as 6%.
Bottle size won't make a difference; you are still making what amounts to a 45% dilution (0.45mL/mL).I wondered that also but she wanted to use 5ml bottles so.....??
I suppose she could use a 10ml bottle using the same ml but then she would have to use 2ml to equal the 1.5% for the bigger bottle.
Honestly, I am leaning towards @Myk's thinking; using a more traditional 10% dilution (0.10mL/mL). It is more highly diluted. And, it is easy to figure the math out, to use at any concentration... just move the decimal point one to the right. If I wanted 1% in a 30mL recipe; the full/undiluted strength would be 0.30mL. Using a 10% dilution; then I would use 3.00mL. easy-peasy.
Yes, I know...that is what threw me off initially also and why I questioned my math. But I was trying to give her what she asked for and then she wanted to use a 5ml bottle so I did the best I could......Bottle size won't make a difference; you are still making what amounts to a 45% dilution (0.45mL/mL).
Honestly, I am leaning towards @Myk's thinking; using a more traditional 10% dilution (0.10mL/mL). It is more highly diluted. And, it is easy to figure the math out, to use at any concentration... just move the decimal point one to the right. If I wanted 1% in a 30mL recipe; the full/undiluted strength would be 0.30mL. Using a 10% dilution; then I would use 3.00mL. easy-peasy.
I guess the only way to know for sure is to try it. I will let the board know what I find out.
And I completely respect you for that! We all see mixing differently, and just because it may not "feel" right to me, in no way means it isn't right for Fran (or anybody else for that matter). I just over think things on a regular basis. That's the problem with having a little bit of smarts; I know there are other possibilities... I just don't know how, when, and when not to, go about applying them. But don't worry; I am only a danger to myself... well, mostly...
I hear what you are saying; and as I started reading the conversation between Sugar and Fran, I was thinking that too.
The problem, for me, is Fran is doing this not to make the concentrate easier to work with (the more common reason for dilution), but to try and get a jump on the aging process.
And, my problem is, I don't know what aging really does, or what affects it. Yes, I have read all sorts of theories, hypotheses, basic chemistry and physics principles, and even wild-arsed guessing. But... I don't know. To be honest, I don't think anybody really does. There are just too many chemical combinations, and conditions, to be realistically studied without LOTS of money. And, I have yet to hear any companies willing to fund such research.
Because of all of these unknowns; I don't know how much influence is generated from:
-- time
-- air/oxygen exposure (both off-gassing and oxidation)
-- co-mingling with other chemicals/compounds (and there's lots that may, or may not be happening here)
So, to my thinking, if the goal is: getting the same/similar "steeping" result, as one gets in a traditional recipe. Then, making the "base" as much like the "traditional" only makes sense. That means as many of the same ingredients as reasonably possible, and the dilution as functionally similar (while still allowing for the addition of other ingredients; and still reaching final targeted dilution).
That is why I went as low as 6%.
None of the speed steeping methods I've tried have had stellar results to say that's what is going on.
Except seed steeping. Having a little of the old aged recipe does seem to transfer to the new mix faster.
Even TFA Strawberry. That's the only one I know that goes from colorless to bright yellow. I can't say that has anything to do with aging for flavor since it doesn't need aging. But if it doesn't happen with 0mg I can say there's some interaction with flavoring chemicals and nicotine since my strawberry has been around for years without turning and my nicotine bottles sit out as long as the strawberry mix takes to turn yellow.
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