Seeing More Newbies going sub-ohm... Scary stuff.

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Ryedan

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The issue I have with all of this sub-ohm stuff with brand new vapers is the majority of the time the vendors selling and setting up the gear are not educating the customer, and the customer is not educating themselves on safety.

Yup, most people don't know they need to be educated about batteries. Most everyone uses batteries all the time without much thought. Cell and cordless phones, laptops, cameras, etc, all use rechargeable batteries and they are safe. Why would mechanical mods be any different? Besides, why would someone sell me something that was dangerous?

I really think it will take someone getting hurt and a good law suit to get these businesses to straighten up their act.

Those of us on this forum should take the responsibility to educate the novices. Give them a warning about safety issues, and point them in the right direction to educate themselves. This benefits the entire vaping community.

:thumb: Agreed.
 

EddardinWinter

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I agree, as a both a sub-ohm and regulated vaper, that sub-ohm can be done safely.

But, there are many things that can go wrong to the uninitiated. Battery choices, coil testing, knowing how to troubleshoot the coil issues properly, etc. are safety pitfalls in mechanical vaping that are merely nuisance issues on a regulated mod. Pretending they aren't is not being a responsibile vaper in my book. I vaped for a year before I attempted using a mechanical. I used the mechanical for over a month before I built a sub-ohm atty. Can it be done faster? Sure, but I truly see sub-ohm vaping as safe only when done by an experienced, educated vaper. It just requires the vaper to do the research. I echo the sentiments of Bad, we have to tell new vapers the safe way to get the knowledge they need to go sub-ohm.



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Baditude

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You can lead a dog to water, but you can't teach it to drink! Yes we should preach battery safety, proper building, basics of electricity, ohms law no doubt! But once that consumer gets home its on him if he follows that sub ohm education.
Agreed. How many times have we encountered a novice here on ECF asking how to make bigger clouds, and when we find out that they are doing something not safe like using the wrong batteries or using a 0.15 ohm coil or don't even own an ohm reader, they don't want to listen to proper safety precautions and are bull-headed and say, "I don't need that info, just tell me how to make better clouds."

Regardless of their ignorance, we still need to preach responsible safety practices. After that its all on them to follow it.
 

Baditude

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You can lead a dog to water, but you can't teach it to drink! Yes we should preach battery safety, proper building, basics of electricity, ohms law no doubt! But once that consumer gets home its on him if he follows that sub ohm education.
Agreed. How many times have we encountered a novice here on ECF asking how to make bigger clouds, and when we find out that they are doing something not safe like using the wrong batteries or using a 0.15 ohm coil or don't even own an ohm reader, they don't want to listen to proper safety precautions and are bull-headed and say, "I don't need that info, just tell me how to make better clouds."

Regardless of their ignorance, we still need to preach responsible safety practices. After that its all on them to follow it.
 

cags

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Just as juvenile as racing cars, playing sports or building trains. Hobby and competition isn't juvenile. Juvenile is calling people adolescents because you don't understand their hobby.

racing cars, playing sports and building trains are all completely legal and there is no threat to ban, tax, regulate those activities. my issue with sub-ohming is that vapors are being threatened with bans, regulations, etc. at this time and I think the cloud chasing is not helping our case at all.
 

kslice917

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First off let me just say that I've been in retail, customer service, and even technical support services for many years now. The sad truth of the matter is that a majority of consumers simply don't care about the details anymore. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still inform them of the facts - but maybe we should just give them a booklet to read on their own time. I've seen many a time where a customer wishes to buy something and while the sales associate is talking to them about it, they change their mind just to find something "less complicated". They just want something that works - they don't care how or why.

When it comes to APVs, I would have to agree with the signed liability contract - but only under certain conditions. If a store is selling hardware with regulators and all the safety precautions built in, there should be no need for it. Granted, accidents do happen - that's why they're called accidents. The only time it should be needed is when selling an APV with the intention of sub-ohm or other potentially dangerous form of vaping.

Let's face the facts. At this moment, I'm holding an MVP 2 with a 2600 mAh battery. This thing has all of the safety precautions I need built right into it. But should I decide to become adventurous, I could take off the casing and cross a few wires and end up with a sizable pipe bomb in my hand. Here's the catch though: The brand new Samsung Galaxy S4 smartphone has the SAME capacity battery (probably with a lower amp draw limit). There's nothing to say I couldn't take apart that phone and do the same thing. So what makes one electronic device more dangerous than the other?

This is why I say there should be a conditionally-signed contract for APVs. We know that these devices are potentially dangerous, and that's why they should only be used by those that are well-informed about them. Since there is no screening process, I think that every B&M store should follow this concept. It's true that if one of these devices do cause harm, I'm sure the media will be all over it. But if somebody who puts a turbo-charger in their car blows up because of it - well the media will still be all over it, but I doubt they'll mention the turbo-charger. The media is just looking for what sells, and when something is new and unfamiliar to the world - well, that sells!

Alright, with way too much having been said; I'll end with this: "You cannot protect a fool, but you can protect yourself from becoming one."
 
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B1sh0p

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racing cars, playing sports and building trains are all completely legal and there is no threat to ban, tax, regulate those activities. my issue with sub-ohming is that vapors are being threatened with bans, regulations, etc. at this time and I think the cloud chasing is not helping our case at all.

How is it hurting your case?
 

Ryedan

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First off let me just say that I've been in retail, customer service, and even technical support services for many years now. The sad truth of the matter is that a majority of consumers simply don't care about the details anymore. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still inform them of the facts - but maybe we should just give them a booklet to read on their own time. I've seen many a time where a customer wishes to buy something and while the sales associate is talking to them about it, they change their mind just to find something "less complicated". They just want something that works - they don't care how or why.

That's OK though. If they don't want to bother with the details related to a mech mod, the shop should not have an issue selling them a regulated mod. A sale is a sale right?

The problem is when they sell someone a 0.5 ohm setup they made for that customer, along with an 18350 battery and don't tell them anything about it. IMO that is going too far.
 

Mousey

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Yup, most people don't know they need to be educated about batteries. Most everyone uses batteries all the time without much thought. Cell and cordless phones, laptops, cameras, etc, all use rechargeable batteries and they are safe. Why would mechanical mods be any different? Besides, why would someone sell me something that was dangerous?

I really think it will take someone getting hurt and a good law suit to get these businesses to straighten up their act.



:thumb: Agreed.
The issue here is that common knowledge about batteries, at least in the uk, isn't very common. The amount of people that have no idea how dangerous LI-On can be if it's not looked after properly is unreal, they immediately freak out over the safety of ecigs and call them dangerous without realising that they've got a far bigger LI-ON battery in that device they've just been yammering away on...

You can preach all you like to people but unfortunately ignorance really is bliss, Remember the Vista "fiasco"? There was absolutely nothing wrong with Vista, it was a great OS but because people got an idea in their heads about it early, that idea stuck and never had chance to change. Because so many people have already got it into their heads that ecigs are already all the same and some idiot managed to get a shout in on time that they're dangerous; That's the opinion that people are stuck with now.

Now there is a slight advantage to Sub-Ohming in this case, Not many people know about it, i didn't have the slightest clue before i started reading threads and guides about it here on ECF, i can see WHY it's dangerous but because it's not an especially common practise amongst your "Average" vaper, or even your slightly clued up Vaper (like me) who uses Mods then we can keep it to the elite groups who like to tinker.

And my 2 cents on the whole cloud chasing thing? Kids for sure. Yes we all love to blow the odd massive plume of vapour every now and again, pretending we're a choo choo train or a fog machine or whatever amuses you most (hehe, chooooo :D ), but we're the type that will more than likely do it just when we're at home, when we know it's okay to fog the place out because it's our home. God forbid kids in the UK figure out sub-ohming, Most kids (i say kids as in under 18) will get straight on that, probably even bypassing the eGo stage purely so they can blow massive clouds in people's faces in public and further damage the reputation of vaping due to the absence of a brain or an ounce of common sense...

If everyone in the UK actually had a brain we'd be a bloody dangerous country.
 

LEDBETTER122

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That's OK though. If they don't want to bother with the details related to a mech mod, the shop should not have an issue selling them a regulated mod. A sale is a sale right?

The problem is when they sell someone a 0.5 ohm setup they made for that customer, along with an 18350 battery and don't tell them anything about it. IMO that is going too far.

I agree with not selling someone who knows nothing about vaping a .5 Ohm coil.

IMO you need some kind of understanding of Ohm law before you sub ohm or even before you start building your own coils.

To vape any coil safely (I personally would not go below .25Ohm) all you need is 2 things

1. Ohm meter (Check ohms and shorts)
2. The right battery
 

tj99959

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    racing cars, playing sports and building trains are all completely legal and there is no threat to ban, tax, regulate those activities. my issue with sub-ohming is that vapors are being threatened with bans, regulations, etc. at this time and I think the cloud chasing is not helping our case at all.

    Guess you didn't grow up im the 50s when most drag races were on main street!
     

    zahzoo

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    I agree with the perception that there are a lot of novice vapers jumping into rebuildables and sub-ohm without taking the time to learn about safe usage.

    I recently joined a facebook group called Texas Rebuildables... it's an eye opener some of the discussions that I've posted comments on safety issues and provided links back to here to help people learn. Especially to Baditudes battery blogs.

    Then to compound things I think the industry overall needs to step it up in certain areas. Like:

    Consistent and full listing of battery specifications ON THE BATTERY... include the brand name, voltages, mAh and amperage drain ratings in clear text big enough to read without a magnifying glass. Each should come in a box with a spec sheet and bold warnings about over-charging and especially about over-draining.

    I've seen statements too many times... which battery works my XXX clone? followed by answers like... "Oh so the green ones will work ok"... or "all flat-tops are protected"... or "it's ok to stack as long as they are the same color"... the sky is the limit!!
     

    B1sh0p

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    Frankly, the dangers of battery's are greatly exaggerated here. Knowledge and safety are obviously important, but people like to pretend we're walking around with potential pipe bombs. The most amperage anybody is drawing from these battery's is about 21 amps. That's on the extreme fringe side. Sony VTC's can safely pulse up to 60 amps, per the actual manufacturer.

    People overcharging cheap ego battery's on a bogus charger is far more dangerous than some kid drawing 10 amps on an 18350. Shops need to do their due diligence and educate their clients, but the dangers aren't so profound that it's keeping me up at night.
     
    And my 2 cents on the whole cloud chasing thing? Kids for sure. Yes we all love to blow the odd massive plume of vapour every now and again, pretending we're a choo choo train or a fog machine or whatever amuses you most (hehe, chooooo :D ),

    Toot-toot! I'm Thomas the Tank Engine!

    I occasionally reproduce the Smaug Desolation scene from The Hobbit in my home office, but I can do that quite effectively at 3.6 volts and 2 ohms. It just takes high VG and some effort.

    If everyone in the UK actually had a brain we'd be a bloody dangerous country.

    Heh. Visit the US some time, we've been dumbing down the educational system for fifty years.
     

    EddardinWinter

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    Frankly, the dangers of battery's are greatly exaggerated here. Knowledge and safety are obviously important, but people like to pretend we're walking around with potential pipe bombs. The most amperage anybody is drawing from these battery's is about 21 amps. That's on the extreme fringe side. Sony VTC's can safely pulse up to 60 amps, per the actual manufacturer.

    People overcharging cheap ego battery's on a bogus charger is far more dangerous than some kid drawing 10 amps on an 18350. Shops need to do their due diligence and educate their clients, but the dangers aren't so profound that it's keeping me up at night.

    21 amps is exceptionally dangerous if the battery's CDR is 10. I view the AW IMR as a gold standard battery with regards to safety (safe battery chemistry, good QC, performs like the manufacturer's ratings say it will)-when it is used properly. An AW 18650 IMR has a CDR of 10, if it is used in an application where its current demand was 21 amps for continuous use, it will likely fail and vent. Should the emergency vent be located at the end of the cap for the tube mod. expansion could well prevent the vent from functioning. In that case, where the pressure has no viable vent, you have an real explosion hazard.

    Are sub-ohm dangers exaggerated? Maybe they are, I grant you that. However, I would rather misrepresent the danger as too much than as too little. I concur with your point that eGo's are potentially just as dangerous (and fail more frequently) when abused, but does that change the responsibility we have as veterans to inform new users about sub-ohm dangers?

    There are lots of very safe battery options out there. I am not sure that every user knows about them. I don't view my sub-ohm set up (in my hands) as significantly more dangerous than my ProVari...but I do view the use of these set ups by users with insufficient knowledge as a very real hazard. If I had to hand a device to a new user, do you agree I should hand them my ProVari with a 1.2 ohm coil and built-in protections instead of my Caravela and its unregulated dual coil sub-ohm RDA?
     
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