Should I switch to nic salts

[Ian Michasiw]

So I started with 18mg freebase, changed to 25mg salt, then 40mg salt and now I'm up to 50mg salt, all through 80W-100W on my smok E-PRIV. I hardly get a headrush anymore.

 

[IDJoel]

So I started with 18mg freebase, changed to 25mg salt, then 40mg salt and now I'm up to 50mg salt, all through 80W-100W on my SMOK E-PRIV. I hardly get a headrush anymore.

Holy cow! That is some strong tolerance for nicotine!!

That would have me on the floor with that rig.

 

[Vapntime]

Remember nicotine salts are not 1:1 with freebase so you should almost be doubling your freebase nic level for salts. This will reveal the difference.

 

[IDJoel]

Remember nicotine salts are not 1:1 with freebase so you should almost be doubling your freebase nic level for salts. This will reveal the difference.

I have seen you make this assertion several times. At first, I thought you were on to something. But then, as I continued to think about it and reason it out, I now think differently.

As best as I can figure it out; I would respectfully submit that your assertion is incorrect.

Yes; the added volume of an acid (required to convert freebase nicotine to nicotine salts), has to be accounted for. But, that is no different, than adding any other ingredient, to any given nicotine concentrate (e.g. PG,VG, flavoring, water, etc.)

If, one were to start with 100mL of 100mg/mL freebase nicotine; one has a total of 10,000mg of freebase nicotine. (100 x 100mg = 10,000mg total nicotine)

If, I want to convert that same 100mL of 100mg/mL freebase nicotine to nicotine salts...
And that requires adding an equal volume(*) of a suitable acid (another 100mL)...
I STILL have 10,000mg of total nicotine (now in salt form).
Only, now it is in a dilution (or “strength”) of 50mg/mL (10,000mg ÷ 200mL = 50mg/mL)
(*) this is “assumed,” and highly generalized, for easy/convenient numerical presentation. The actual amount of required acid may be significantly different.

The nicotine is not diminished, broken down, or “consumed” (by the acid) in any way. The only thing that changes is the molecular state of the nicotine (from freebase, to salt; by bonding to the acid's available ions), and the total volume it is suspended in.

How, then, is that ANY different than adding the equivalent amount of PG (or any other ingredient)? Other than one does not get the freebase-to-salt conversion?

The only thing, that I can see, that truly changes, is: that the maximum nicotine potential gets (roughly speaking) halved. With freebase nicotine; one can achieve close to 1,000mg/mL nicotine content (pure freebase). While nicotine salts, because of the required inclusion of a suitable acid, can only achieve a maximum nicotine content of something closer to the vicinity of 500mg/mL. Because, these are generally accepted “unsafe” levels, for the home DIYer to be working with, it is a moot point. AND, has nothing to do with proper dilution calculations.

If, I am correctly understanding, everything I stated above, I would then suggest: as long as the correct mg/mL nicotine salt is calculated; it SHOULD be treated on a 1:1 basis with freebase nicotine. If this is not correct; please show me where/how I am mistaken. I genuinely want to know what I am failing to understand.

 

[madstabber]

Remember nicotine salts are not 1:1 with freebase so you should almost be doubling your freebase nic level for salts. This will reveal the difference.

I agree with @IDJoel and I’m happy he responded because I was just gonna say no. Nicotine freebase and nicotine salts are 1:1. I think you are actually saying that you should take more nicotine salts then freebase which if anything would be the opposite because salts are absorbed more readily. Though I don’t think it’s so much so that you should consider it anything but 1:1. As stated above, if there is some proof otherwise, I welcome the correction.

 

[Vapntime]

Its 100mg/ml nicotine SALTS not nicotine
Press yes, enter etc if prompted
Nicotine Salts: NicSalt-B and NicSalt-S - CHEMNOVATIC

How can we be vaping @50 mg/salts if its absorbed better than freebase.

Name: NicSalt-B (Nicotine Benzoate)
Identifier (CAS no.): 88660-53-1
Appearance: white to amber coloured crystals
Identification: Nicotine Benzoate
Purity: min. 99.9%
Nicotine content: 57,05% w/w corresponding to [575,053] mg/ml
Benzoic acid content: 42,95 % w/w corresponding to 429,947] mg/ml
Nicotine benzoate content: 99,999 % w/w corresponding to 999,099 mg/ml

Why are we not being told this from suppliers because benzoic and other acids are a lot cheaper than nicotine. Look at the prices of nic salt its a great way to make more money out of nic sales. I'm buying some though lol

 

[muth]

which if anything would be the opposite

This is what I understand. Although my understanding is merely from listening to others and reading about it, not from my mathematical equations, thankfully.

 

[muth]

Okay, now I'm confused. Did my friend use more or less salts vs freebase? And what did I read, anyway? Thank you for the article. I'll read it when I'm not feeling so under the weather and when I'm interested in trying salts. The easy answer for me will be to ask my supplier what I need if I've been buying and using "so much" freebase?

 

[IDJoel]

Thanks, @madstabber. I am glad to know I am not the only one seeing it this way.

I do have to say, that I do cringe a bit, each time I see someone repeating the popular idea that "salts are absorbed more readily." Because, my reading has lead me to believe just the opposite. It is mostly based on Big Tobacco (a.k.a. BT) research; but it still seems applicable.

BT was adding chemicals to their cigarettes, in order to convert more of the nicotine salts (a more natural/common state of nicotine in plant matter) into freebase form. Thus, giving better nicotine uptake, and smoker satisfaction. Not the other way round. This, as I understand it, is Marlboro cigarettes' claim to fame. The extra freebase nic made that particular brand more popular and drove sales through the roof.

My own curiosity got piqued by reading this reddit post:
Nicotine Freebase vs. Salt: Absorption & Vaporization Efficacy, contrasted with Pax Juul claims about Benzoic Acid & 'natural tobacco nicotine salts' -- WTFbroscience?! : Deeper_DIY

While this post is only a layman's point of view, and is not subject to scientific peer review, it does offer a couple of links that are. Those include:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es970402f
and
The SECRET and SOUL of Marlboro: Phillip Morris and the Origins, Spread, and Denial of Nicotine Freebasing
One can take their own google searching from there.

The only references I can find, that claim salts have faster absorption (vs. freebase), all come from the vaping community... and offer no scientific, peer-reviewed, support.

I am willing to be shown otherwise; but I have not been able to find it from my own efforts.

 

[madstabber]

Thanks for the correction @IDJoel and the links, very informative. I think I read it was absorbed better from BT propaganda in regards to the Juul. It’s a pain in the ... to keep the facts straight with all the conflicting information that’s out there. Most times it’s disguised as a reputable source making it harder to decipher. Thanks again for steering me straight.

 

[madstabber]

Okay, now I'm confused. Did my friend use more or less salts vs freebase? And what did I read, anyway? Thank you for the article. I'll read it when I'm not feeling so under the weather and when I'm interested in trying salts. The easy answer for me will be to ask my supplier what I need if I've been buying and using "so much" freebase?

The easy answer is: treat freebase nicotine and nicotine salts the same. If your satisfied vaping 10 mg freebase then use 10 mg nicotine salts if you so wish. Same:same

 

[Vapntime]

Fellas, I will link this, it has some references and explains what I seemingly can't.

Check out underground diy nic salt.

Maybe you should read the nic salt patents as well. Chemistry isn't some thing that you can theorise about and slap backs

 

[muth]

Thanks, @madstabber. I am glad to know I am not the only one seeing it this way.

I do have to say, that I do cringe a bit, each time I see someone repeating the popular idea that "salts are absorbed more readily." Because, my reading has lead me to believe just the opposite. It is mostly based on Big Tobacco (a.k.a. BT) research; but it still seems applicable.

BT was adding chemicals to their cigarettes, in order to convert more of the nicotine salts (a more natural/common state of nicotine in plant matter) into freebase form. Thus, giving better nicotine uptake, and smoker satisfaction. Not the other way round. This, as I understand it, is Marlboro cigarettes' claim to fame. The extra freebase nic made that particular brand more popular and drove sales through the roof.

My own curiosity got piqued by reading this reddit post:
Nicotine Freebase vs. Salt: Absorption & Vaporization Efficacy, contrasted with Pax Juul claims about Benzoic Acid & 'natural tobacco nicotine salts' -- WTFbroscience?! : Deeper_DIY

While this post is only a layman's point of view, and is not subject to scientific peer review, it does offer a couple of links that are. Those include:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es970402f
and
The SECRET and SOUL of Marlboro: Phillip Morris and the Origins, Spread, and Denial of Nicotine Freebasing
One can take their own google searching from there.

The only references I can find, that claim salts have faster absorption (vs. freebase), all come from the vaping community... and offer no scientific, peer-reviewed, support.

I am willing to be shown otherwise; but I have not been able to find it from my own efforts.

And that would explain why Europe only allows nic salt to be sold, right?

 

[IDJoel]

Its 100mg/ml nicotine SALTS not nicotine
Press yes, enter etc if prompted
Nicotine Salts: NicSalt-B and NicSalt-S - CHEMNOVATIC

How can we be vaping @50 mg/salts if its absorbed better than freebase.

Name: NicSalt-B (Nicotine Benzoate)
Identifier (CAS no.): 88660-53-1
Appearance: white to amber coloured crystals
Identification: Nicotine Benzoate
Purity: min. 99.9%
Nicotine content: 57,05% w/w corresponding to [575,053] mg/ml
Benzoic acid content: 42,95 % w/w corresponding to 429,947] mg/ml
Nicotine benzoate content: 99,999 % w/w corresponding to 999,099 mg/ml

Yes? I looked at it in your other posts. I still don't see what you apparently see.
I look at this:

Nicotine content: 57,05% w/w corresponding to [575,053] mg/ml

and I see a product that should be marketed/labeled as a 575mg/mL nicotine product.


I am guessing(?) you are looking at:

Nicotine benzoate content: 99,999 % w/w corresponding to 999,099 mg/ml

and thinking(?) it should be marketed/labeled as a 999mg/mL nicotine product.

Is that what I am missing?

Why are we not being told this from suppliers because benzoic and other acids are a lot cheaper than nicotine. Look at the prices of nic salt its a great way to make more money out of nic sales. I'm buying some though lol

I see your point, and agree, that salts are overpriced. I suppose, one could make some argument, that there is additional processing required... and that processing incurs additional expense. But, I am skeptical, that it is to the extreme of the current price difference. Rather, I suspect it is mostly due to salts being new and trendy, and the limited number of suppliers can charge pretty much whatever they want.

Limited competition, plus high demand, has always been a great recipe for high profit margins.

As more and more wholesalers bring nic salt products to market... and the market becomes flooded with more vendors wanting a slice of the nic salt pie... I would expect to see nic salt prices fall more in line.

Look at plain old freebase nic... was anyone selling a liter of 100mg/mL nic for $45 ten years ago? Now, that price point is not hard to find.

Fellas, I will link this, it has some references and explains what I seemingly can't.

Check out underground diy nic salt.

A) I'm not seeing a link.

B) I haven't seen you explain anything. You assert that nicotine salt and freebase nicotine is not a 1:1 ratio. And, link to one manufacturer's specification page.

I have seen no effort to:
-- make things clear(er)
-- give reason
-- justify
(all definitions of explaining)

I am sorry, I am not intentionally trying to be argumentative, or hostile. And, I am freely willing to admit I am wrong. I just don't understand what, where, or how I am in error. I am inviting you to help me understand.

I have done my best, to try an explain, my own understanding, be it right or wrong. I am willing to be corrected. I have seen no similar explanation from you. I apologize if I missed it.

Maybe you should read the nic salt patents as well.

I have read through Juul's patent (here and here). I see nothing comparing freebase to salt. Did I miss it? Perhaps you would copy and paste the pertinent section?

Chemistry isn't some thing that you can theorise about and slap backs

That is just being cheeky. I have done my utmost, to remain respectful and courteous, while trying to understand your position. If you feel disrespected; I sincerely apologize. That was never my intent.

 

[IDJoel]

And that would explain why Europe only allows nic salt to be sold, right?

That is a new one to me. I am unaware of nic salts having any regulatory favoritism in Europe (or anywhere else). The EU, and other European countries, have various restrictions on the permitted nicotine concentration level that is legal to be sold. But I have not heard, of freebase being banned, while salts remain acceptable. If that is true; I am (once again) oblivious.

 

[Vapntime]

@IDJoel have a break mate. Why don't you spend some of your energy actually researching or go and talk to a chemist. If you can't understand or research yourself well maybe you don't want to know and prefer your long winded passive aggresive tirades.

 

[Vapntime]

This is as simple as I can find, feel free to have the calculations checked by a chemist.

JUULpods and E-Liquid FAQs - JUUL Support

Actual mg/mL Nicotine Content of JUUL Pods : juul

So, if you make a 10% solution of the above pure chemnovatic linked salts. How much equivalent freebase nicotine is in it?

 

[IDJoel]

So, if you make a 10% solution of the above pure chemnovatic linked salts. How much equivalent freebase nicotine is in it?

Based on the data found in the Chemnovatic spec sheet:

I would be inclined to think 57.505mg/mL. (10% x 575.053mg/mL = 57.5053mg/mL)

 

[muth]

That is a new one to me. I am unaware of nic salts having any regulatory favoritism in Europe (or anywhere else). The EU, and other European countries, have various restrictions on the permitted nicotine concentration level that is legal to be sold. But I have not heard, of freebase being banned, while salts remain acceptable. If that is true; I am (once again) oblivious.

And I could be misinformed or just misunderstood. Since I'm not living in Europe I have no reason to verify it. The end

 

[muth]

You 2 guys are having the Battle of the Mathematicians. Though I admire your skills, this is no place for me.....I'm outta' here.........