Should I switch to nic salts
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Gotta love math!!!! What I get out of it is that I will stay with freebase as it does not have a longer lasting effect. I like the fact that I can go hours without wanting to vape with the least amount of added chemicals to my juice. I vape mainly Unflavored.
This is quoted from the chemnovatic website:
"Nicotine in its natural state is found in tobacco in the form of salt. However, nicotine salts available on the market cannot be obtained directly from the tobacco leaves.
Over the course of years, tobacco companies have managed to separate the purest form of nicotine. It is called a freebase nicotine."
"Nicotine salts characteristics:
• Stronger and longer nicotine effect
Nic salts guarantee greater satisfaction comparable to the nicotine kick after smoking a standard cigarette. As the nicotine salts are in its natural state, they are also more biocompatible to the
human organism. As a result they are better absorbed to the bloodstream and the nicotine effect lasts longer."
@IDJoel So with freebase as the purest form and Nic salt are only 57,05% free base and then added Benzoic acid content: 42,95 % equaling to the 100%, that is how salts can be vaped at a higher mg/ml. It does not contain the same amount of freebase. With that being said from one website, that is where Vapntime gets that salts and freebase are not 1:1 ratio that I see here:
It would be a marketing scam if you ask me as you are getting less pure nicotine but with the added lasting effect, chemical, and price on top of it.
As for the OP @Ian Michasiw , everyone is different and require different set ups and mg/ml. I hope you find what you are looking for. With all the information out there, I would suggest reading it, trying it, and making your own decision on what works as it is for you. My opinion is up top.
This is quoted from the chemnovatic website:
"Nicotine in its natural state is found in tobacco in the form of salt. However, nicotine salts available on the market cannot be obtained directly from the tobacco leaves.
Over the course of years, tobacco companies have managed to separate the purest form of nicotine. It is called a freebase nicotine."
According to the chemnovatic website:
"Nicotine salts characteristics:
• Stronger and longer nicotine effect
Nic salts guarantee greater satisfaction comparable to the nicotine kick after smoking a standard cigarette. As the nicotine salts are in its natural state, they are also more biocompatible to the
human organism. As a result they are better absorbed to the bloodstream and the nicotine effect lasts longer."
@IDJoel So with freebase as the purest form and Nic salt are only 57,05% free base and then added Benzoic acid content: 42,95 % equaling to the 100%, that is how salts can be vaped at a higher mg/ml. It does not contain the same amount of freebase. With that being said from one website, that is where Vapntime gets that salts and freebase are not 1:1 ratio that I see here:
@Vapntime your post should read opposite and you would have to almost double the amount of nic salts to achieve what freebase is as Salts are a mixture and only a % of pure. Doubling pure will not reveal the difference as it does not contain Benzoic acid. So, you are both right in my eyes and just taking different roads to the same end destination hopefully in harm reduction from smoking analogs.
It would be a marketing scam if you ask me as you are getting less pure nicotine but with the added lasting effect, chemical, and price on top of it.
As for the OP @Ian Michasiw , everyone is different and require different set ups and mg/ml. I hope you find what you are looking for. With all the information out there, I would suggest reading it, trying it, and making your own decision on what works as it is for you. My opinion is up top.
This is driving me nuts, but this is how I see it. Freebase is absorbed better then salts but salts are smoother (less TH) so you can comfortably vape higher concentrations. This makes sense because people used to use a white powder for recreation in the 70’s. Then someone had the idea to turn it into freebase aka freebasing. Richard Pryor famously burnt and almost killed hisself. Then someone figured out how to make it into a freebase before using instead of the Pryor way where you turn it into freebase while using. This was very popular because of the increase in bioavailability caused stronger effects in the user. So long story long, when something is in freebase form it’s stronger.
If you buy freebase nicotine that is 100mg/ml that’s how many mg’s it has per ml.
1:1 no math needed, I don’t see what the misunderstanding is. It seems black& white
In regards to this guy, I still don’t understand your point? If you buy 100mg/ml nicotine salts that’s how many mg’s it has per ml.
If you buy freebase nicotine that is 100mg/ml that’s how many mg’s it has per ml.
1:1 no math needed, I don’t see what the misunderstanding is. It seems black& white
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Yep. I was talking about the equivalent freebase in the nic salts. But yes it wasn't worded well.
OK last time it is 100mg/ml of nicotine salts not nicotine. Nicotine salts have an acid added which usually makes up 40-60mg per ml, the other 60-40mg/ml is freebase nicotine. Therefore using the benzoic acid nicotine salts 100mg/ml only contains 57mg/ml of freebase nicotine the other 43mg/ml is benzoic acid.
Ohhhhhh, ok I see what the problem is...I think. Yea I didn’t understand what you were talking about. Your talking about the freebase compared to the salt in the same bottle after the acid is added to. Like what the conversion salt amount is from the freebase it was converted from.
I think that’s what you were trying to get at. Right? And my heads gonna explode trying to wrap it around this so I’m done after this.
I got it, I was somewhere else but that was very well explained. Thank you because I was bothered by this but in the end it was a misunderstanding. I’ve been reading this thread, clicking links, reading that, and my head was spinnng. Sorry for any confusion caused on my part. Finally I can put this to bed and I did learn some things so this whole misunderstanding each other thing was fruitful for me anyway.
Yea I'm talking about what makes up the 100mg/ml nicotine salts.
I was the same when I first thought about it I had to get my head around it and research because I thought it was opposite as well. Just stick with the chemistry there is so much misinformation out there about it. All good.
I was the same when I first thought about it I had to get my head around it and research because I thought it was opposite as well. Just stick with the chemistry there is so much misinformation out there about it. All good.
Son Chemnovatic salts are very weak,it is not same halo salt liquid or nkd salt liquid.because 50mg chem salt content 27mg nicotine.50mg salt liquid must content 50mg nicotine,not 27mg.
The best explanation so far of nicotine salts and how they work I've been able to find anywhere--from our resident chemist, Kurt, posted years ago in one of our Juul threads.
"There was another inhalation device proposed by Altria some years ago that used the pyruvate salt of nicotine. Nicotine is a base (amine, to be precise). The form we are used to is the "free-base" form, meaning it is just nicotine. But in plants, since it is a base, it can react with any acids present (including water to a small extent), and turn into the "salt" or "acid" form. The chemistry is not hard, but it does require a knowledge of acids and bases.
Suppose there is citric acid (HCA) present with nicotine (Nic). A small amount of these will react:
Nic + HCA ---> Nic-H+ + CA-
CA- is citrate (conjugate base of citric acid). Nic-H+ is the nicotinium ion, which is just Nic with an H+ attached to the amine N. So the product is nicotinium citrate, also known as the citrate salt of nicotine. It is still nicotine, and if absorbed will behave as nicotine in the brain, but the salt has different absorption properties than the free-base Nic.
Oral absorption (mouth, throat, much of what we get when we vape): Generally slower than lung absorption. Free-base absorbs faster than the salt form. This is why some snus has sodium bicarbonate added, to act as a base and turn naturally occurring nicotine salts in tobacco to the free-base form. The HCO3- ion just pulls the H+ off the nicotinium ion.
Lung absorption: faster than oral in general, but hard to do in vapor form (droplets are generally too big to penetrate the lungs as much as orally). Salt form tends to penetrate deeper into the lungs than freebase wrapped in VG/PG droplets. This is because the salt form tends to be a fine solid. So if you could make the nicotine salt with a safe acid, like citric or pyruvic, and somehow atomize the powdery salt, it should get to the lungs more effectively than the free-base form.
But its not just free-base vs salt form. Gaseous free-base nic will get to the lungs just fine. The problem is that is not what we vape. We inhale relatively large droplets of VG/PG that has nicotine free-base contained in them. Make the droplets smaller, or no droplets at all, just gas-phase, and lung absorption increases. Higher heat and/or lower e-liquid viscosity will help this.
It looks like the idea with the Juul is to include nicotine salts (my guess is primarily pyruvate salt, but this is just a guess), and increase lung absorption. This is the only way to get the rapid spike in serum nicotine to mimic smoking, which is primarily lung absorption of naturally occurring nic salts in cured tobacco. This and a very high nic concentration, which also increases the amount absorbed in the lungs. These in combination should provide lung absorption better than just a 50 mg/mL vape.
As far as I can see, there are no other tobacco alkaloids or psychoactives present, just nicotine and nicotine salts.
If I see them being sold in a convenience store, I will probably try it, just to see. But I have been smoke-free for almost 2 years now, and don't think about smoking anymore. What would be of interest is a study that shows the Juul does better for quitting than even good ecigs.
Hope this clarifies things!"
And this:
"Additionally, I think a similar effect might be possible by simply lowering the pH of an e-liquid with a safe acid. I know Vermont Vapor uses citric acid to adjust the pH of their DIY nicotine base, down to about pH 8, which would be a significant amount of citrate salt form compared to free-base form. I have always found that nic to be particularly satisfying, also tastes really good, but I don't know if this is why. It would depend on how solvated the salt is in VG vapor droplets (they only use VG and water, no PG). I don't know if studies have been done on this. Would be expensive to analyze."
Yea, thanks for that. I think the juul uses mainly benzoic acid from looking at the patent. I agree they are going to be absorbed better than the freebase mg/ml The diy nicotine salt makers would have a good idea about this. I don't think it will be a extremely large percentage though.
I vape @10mg freebase (subohm) so I'm considering starting around 15mg nicotine salts at a lower wattage than normal.
I vape @10mg freebase (subohm) so I'm considering starting around 15mg nicotine salts at a lower wattage than normal.
I haven't read the whole conversation so if I'm missing something please pardon me.
Both sides are right. If you are talking about Pure Nicotine Salt is won't exist as 1000mg/mL of Nicotine because you need space for the Salts. But if you are talking about a lower concentration such as 100mg/ml that will exist because there is space in the formula for the Salts.
I think that it isn't being taken into account (for discussion purposes) that the average DIY is using a 100mg/ml Nicotine potency of Nicotine Salt. The other 900mg/ml is made up of Some VG PG combination or VG or PG alone + the salts.
Yes if you were to buy pure nicotine Salt it couldn't assay as pure nicotine since you need space for the salts. But at lower concentrations you will get the Nicotine Assay that is represented.
I can kind of compare it to Water in chemicals.
I sell supplements and the pure chemicals are assayed on a dry basis. All liquid is dried out then potency is Assayed. But when you buy a less pure chemical/compound they often do assay on an As Is Basis. (No Drying). Reason is that almost all chemicals will contain a certain amount of water. Generally 2-6%. Taking into account the water unless dried Pure Chemicals are not Pure.
Example: Taurine contains 5% Water. If I test "as is" my result will be around 95% Pure (100%* Taurine - 5% Water=95%) If I test on "Dry Basis then I take out that 5% and will get 100%* Pure.
*BTW Pure chemical is considered to be 98%-103% due to variation in testing. I've simplified by using a 100% figure.
Occasionally a customer makes the mistake of assaying a chemical on an As Is Basis. The potency is always less than represented . They reject the material, then we explain the reason for failure and they retest the right way (Dry Basis) and it passes.
In the case of Nic Salts. Pure Nic Salt will not contain 1000mg/ml of Nicotine cause no space for the Salts. But lower concentrations will have an accurate Nicotine Assay because amount of nicotine is represented not the amount of Nicotine salt.
For example yesterday I bought Nicotine Salt 100mg of Nicotine per lm. Not 100mg of nicotine salt per ml.
Both sides are right. If you are talking about Pure Nicotine Salt is won't exist as 1000mg/mL of Nicotine because you need space for the Salts. But if you are talking about a lower concentration such as 100mg/ml that will exist because there is space in the formula for the Salts.
I think that it isn't being taken into account (for discussion purposes) that the average DIY is using a 100mg/ml Nicotine potency of Nicotine Salt. The other 900mg/ml is made up of Some VG PG combination or VG or PG alone + the salts.
Yes if you were to buy pure nicotine Salt it couldn't assay as pure nicotine since you need space for the salts. But at lower concentrations you will get the Nicotine Assay that is represented.
I can kind of compare it to Water in chemicals.
I sell supplements and the pure chemicals are assayed on a dry basis. All liquid is dried out then potency is Assayed. But when you buy a less pure chemical/compound they often do assay on an As Is Basis. (No Drying). Reason is that almost all chemicals will contain a certain amount of water. Generally 2-6%. Taking into account the water unless dried Pure Chemicals are not Pure.
Example: Taurine contains 5% Water. If I test "as is" my result will be around 95% Pure (100%* Taurine - 5% Water=95%) If I test on "Dry Basis then I take out that 5% and will get 100%* Pure.
*BTW Pure chemical is considered to be 98%-103% due to variation in testing. I've simplified by using a 100% figure.
Occasionally a customer makes the mistake of assaying a chemical on an As Is Basis. The potency is always less than represented . They reject the material, then we explain the reason for failure and they retest the right way (Dry Basis) and it passes.
In the case of Nic Salts. Pure Nic Salt will not contain 1000mg/ml of Nicotine cause no space for the Salts. But lower concentrations will have an accurate Nicotine Assay because amount of nicotine is represented not the amount of Nicotine salt.
For example yesterday I bought Nicotine Salt 100mg of Nicotine per lm. Not 100mg of nicotine salt per ml.
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They do. I didn't want to alter Kurt's OP, but he wrote it before we knew what Juul was using (2015). BTW, Kurt is not a fan of benzoic acid--he prefers pyruvic and citric acids himself.
FWIW, I vape 12-16 mg/ml freebase MTL at 10-15 watts, most of the time, and I use salts at the same or slightly higher concentration (15-25), so pretty close.
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I also use the same mg of salt and freebase. I mix my own in the mid 20’s mg and have been vaping salts for the last several months. I switched to salts just because they are more stable and I like to buy 1000ml of 100mg so it takes a long time to vape. It ends up being 3 liters when combined with pg/vg so I figured salts should hold up better over the couple years it will take for me to vape it. This is what I was saying with the 1:1 salts to freebase. I notice no difference in the two vaping them about the same amount with what feels like the same intake of nicotine.
Thank you. This, and the follow-up posts of @madstabber, @Vapntime, and @Katya, I think I see where I was falling down. I am getting it now.
But, understanding my misunderstanding, has raised a new question in my head. When I am looking at a commercial bottle of nicotine salt e-liquid (or DIY salt concentrate), and it displays a potency of "50mg/mL," is it stating only the nicotine content used to make the salts? Or, is it the converted salt (freebase + acid) content?
I had assumed it was the prior (and the reason why I was thinking 1:1). But, now, I'm unsure.
Its the converted salt mg/ml. So, a extremely general conversion taking into consideration freebase used plus better absorption from salts may be around 75% of stated mg/ml on bottle for nicotine salts only. I just have that in my head to keep things simple.
I was curious myself so I called NicRiver. There customer service asked the technicians who came back to me with this answer.
When the label says 100mg that is the amount of nicotine not the amount of nicotine salt.
I then asked if:
The nicotine salt 100mg will have the same concentration of Nicotine as the Freebase 100mg. They replied to the affirmative.
That's because they don't know or wont tell you. What are you going to believe the chemistry or the middleman who sells you nicotine at an inflated price for profit. Would it be adventagous for him to tell you its not 100mg/ml of freebase nicotine. They are right though it is 100mg/ml nicotine salts.
It’s freebase that’s absorbed better not salts. Salts are more stable but freebase crosses the blood brain barrier easier. Of this I am sure.
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