Should I switch to nic salts

[madstabber]

Please (re)read post #70--quote from Kurt.

Should I switch to nic salts

From that post:
Oral absorption (mouth, throat, much of what we get when we vape): Generally slower than lung absorption. Free-base absorbs faster than the salt form. This is why some snus has sodium bicarbonate added, to act as a base and turn naturally occurring nicotine salts in tobacco to the free-base form. The HCO3- ion just pulls the H+ off the nicotinium ion.

We’re you agreeing with me? Or are you interpreting something different from the post?

 

[Katya]

We’re you agreeing with me? Or are you interpreting something different from the post?

I agree when it comes to freebase and oral absorption. Salts are different:

Lung absorption: faster than oral in general, but hard to do in vapor form (droplets are generally too big to penetrate the lungs as much as orally). Salt form tends to penetrate deeper into the lungs than freebase wrapped in VG/PG droplets. This is because the salt form tends to be a fine solid. So if you could make the nicotine salt with a safe acid, like citric or pyruvic, and somehow atomize the powdery salt, it should get to the lungs more effectively than the free-base form.

 

[madstabber]

I agree when it comes to freebase and oral absorption. Salts are different:

Lung absorption: faster than oral in general, but hard to do in vapor form (droplets are generally too big to penetrate the lungs as much as orally). Salt form tends to penetrate deeper into the lungs than freebase wrapped in VG/PG droplets. This is because the salt form tends to be a fine solid. So if you could make the nicotine salt with a safe acid, like citric or pyruvic, and somehow atomize the powdery salt, it should get to the lungs more effectively than the free-base form.

Yea I read that too and I’m not sure what to make of it. The line “somehow atomize the powdery salt” it would get to lungs more effective than freebase. That sentence leads me to believe it doesn’t pertain to our situation. At least not how we currently vape.

 

[Katya]

Yea I read that too and I’m not sure what to make of it. The line “somehow atomize the powdery salt” it would get to lungs more effective than freebase. That sentence leads me to believe it doesn’t pertain to our situation. At least not how we currently vape.

Keep reading:

"It looks like the idea with the Juul is to include nicotine salts (my guess is primarily pyruvate salt, but this is just a guess), and increase lung absorption. This is the only way to get the rapid spike in serum nicotine to mimic smoking, which is primarily lung absorption of naturally occurring nic salts in cured tobacco."

 

[madstabber]

Yea I think we’re just arguing semantics now. The freebase absorbs faster in nose and mouth. The salts absorb better in the lungs and the nicotine absorbed in the lungs is more efficient or effective. That’s why this issue is so hotly debated. I don’t think there’s that big a difference between the two. One might be better for This while the other is better for That. In the end they are extremely similar.

 

[Katya]

Yea I think we’re just arguing semantics now.

I don't think we're arguing at all. I don't think anyone knows for sure what to make of it all. People are (and have been for years) experimenting with e-cigs and eliquids in search of that elusive cigarette-like sensation. Many smokers have been able to quit with just plain freebase nicotine. Others (80% per recent study) have been less successful. The less fortunate among us have been on a never-ending quest to find that "missing ingredient," be it WTA, high-wattage vaping, nicotine salts, or heated (not burned) tobacco, like the 2009 awful Ploom (The Ploom is Here) or 2018 IQOS.

There's something interesting, if not fully understood yet, about the nicotine salts. A recent study by Goniewicz et. al. concluded that, "The nicotine in the vapor of these products was nearly at levels delivered by tobacco cigarettes. Moreover, the users' levels of cotinine, a byproduct of nicotine, were even higher than the levels seen among teen cigarette smokers. That finding is most likely due to the salt form of nicotine in these devices, which is absorbed more easily than other forms, the researchers explained."
Study: Juuls have similar nicotine level as cigarettes, absorbed by body faster

I just read and read and try to understand myself.

 

[madstabber]

I don't think we're arguing at all. I don't think anyone knows for sure what to make of it all. People are (and have been for years) experimenting with e-cigs and eliquids in search of that elusive cigarette-like sensation. Many smokers have been able to quit with just plain freebase nicotine. Others (80% per recent study) have been less successful. The less fortunate among us have been on a never-ending quest to find that "missing ingredient," be it WTA, high-wattage vaping, nicotine salts, or heated (not burned) tobacco, like the 2009 awful Ploom (The Ploom is Here) or 2018 IQOS.

There's something interesting, if not fully understood yet, about the nicotine salts. A recent study by Goniewicz et. al. concluded that, "The nicotine in the vapor of these products was nearly at levels delivered by tobacco cigarettes. Moreover, the users' levels of cotinine, a byproduct of nicotine, were even higher than the levels seen among teen cigarette smokers. That finding is most likely due to the salt form of nicotine in these devices, which is absorbed more easily than other forms, the researchers explained."
Study: Juuls have similar nicotine level as cigarettes, absorbed by body faster

I just read and read and try to understand myself.

I agree, we aren’t arguing, debating would have been a better choice of words perhaps. A constructive debate to try and understand the, sometimes contradictory, information that’s out there about vaping.

 

[Vapntime]

So, I bought some nic salts and made some as well (nicotine ditartrate). I must say I prefer them to freebase in a big way. I'm getting more effect and satisfaction. I settled at 20mg/ml salts which is double my freebase mg @50w/0.15ohm. I get a rapid increase in my heart rate and a much heavier nicotine rush. I tried 20mg freebase and did not get the same effect at all. I vape for the effects of nicotine not because I gave up smoking.

I would suggest this is the missing link for smokers and why the juul is doing so well.

 

[Katya]

So, I bought some nic salts and made some as well (nicotine ditartrate).

Where did you buy your salts, Vapntime? I'm running low on my NN (I ordered a small bottle some time ago) and even though I like it very much, I'm always interested in trying something new. I looked at Nicotine River salts and also at CNT salts from Liquid Barn.

CNT e Liquid Nicotine SALT Solution - 10% (100mg)

I wish they would disclose what acid they use to create their salts--banzoic or citric or something else?

 

[Vapntime]

Where did you buy your salts, Vapntime? I'm running low on my NN (I ordered a small bottle some time ago) and even though I like it very much, I'm always interested in trying something new. I looked at Nicotine River salts and also at CNT salts from Liquid Barn.

CNT e Liquid Nicotine SALT Solution - 10% (100mg)

I wish they would disclose what acid they use to create their salts--banzoic or citric or something else?

I didn't want to splurge so I just got some from LNW. Shipping took over 2 weeks and they are slightly smelly and darker but they seem to vape fine. NicRiver used to say there salts were not made with benzoic acid, however I can't find that on their site anymore. Liquidbarn have always had quality, fresh nicotine and with CNT now probably even more so. Its a shame that most will not disclose the acid. NicSelect have some nicotine salts coming out but I can't find them anywhere. They are up front about acid used and use it as a sales approach which I think is great.
Products & Applications | NicSelect
Scroll down to salts

 

[Katya]

Products & Applications | NicSelect
Scroll down to salts

Yeah, I've seen your post, I think, in the big Nicotine thread (?)--interesting, but when will they be available?

I think I'll go with the CNT for now--I like flavorless, odorless, NOT peppery nic, so I think CNT salts should suit me just fine.

 

[Vapntime]

Liquid barn CNT nicotine salts contain malic, benzoic and salicylic acids.

Delosi labs nicotine salts do not contain benzoic acid.

Just waiting on LNW

 

[Katya]

Liquid barn CNT nicotine salts contain malic, benzoic and salicylic acids.

All three mixed together? Or three different formulations?

Delosi labs nicotine salts do not contain benzoic acid.

Interesting. Have you ever tried them?

Just waiting on LNW

Keep us posted.

I only tried NN Smooth Salts and I liked them, but I'm curious about other manufacturers.

 

[Vapntime]

CNT is three mixed together, I would suggest they do this to attain the best freebase to acid ratio among other things like effect.

Delosi labs have a good rep for nicotine base, they advertise better than USP grade nicotine. I read one comment from a few years ago that they were using nicselect and have never changed supplier, but yea it was just a random comment. I might try them next as they have 3 day DHL shipping to Australia.

Hopefully LNW are forthcoming on acids used and I might contact delosi to see what they use anyway.

 

[Katya]

Thank you so much for your efforts to get more information from them! I believe that we have the right to know what we are buying--trade secrets notwithstanding.

 

[Vapntime]

Wizard labs nicotine salts use only tartaric acid according to their SDS. I know that nicotine ditartrate is one of the safest nicotine salts that can be used.

Delosi labs use a mixture, which *does not* contain benzoic or citric acids.

Nicvape use benzoic acid only (as advertised).

 

[Vapntime]

Just an update

Liquid barn CNT nicotine salts contain malic, benzoic and salicylic acids.

Wizard labs nicotine salts use only tartaric acid according to their SDS. I know that nicotine ditartrate is one of the safest nicotine salts that can be used. It is used in smoking cessation products and is found in academic nicotine studies.

Delosi labs use a mixture, which *does not* contain benzoic or citric acids but does contain levullinic acid.

LNW salts use at least benzoic acid

Nicvape use benzoic acid only (as advertised)

 

[ScottP]

Liquid barn CNT nicotine salts contain malic, benzoic and salicylic acids.

Delosi labs nicotine salts do not contain benzoic acid.

Just waiting on LNW

Interesting. I wonder what nicotineriver uses.

 

[charlie1465]

CNT is three mixed together, I would suggest they do this to attain the best freebase to acid ratio among other things like effect.

Delosi labs have a good rep for nicotine base, they advertise better than USP grade nicotine. I read one comment from a few years ago that they were using nicselect and have never changed supplier, but yea it was just a random comment. I might try them next as they have 3 day DHL shipping to Australia.

Hopefully LNW are forthcoming on acids used and I might contact delosi to see what they use anyway.

Yes...I just had a look at Delosi and you're right it looks good $104 shipped to France 100mg/ml. That's a three day delivery with Dhl. I have used LNW in the past and they provide a really good service and the nic was fine also

 

[Vapntime]

Yes...I just had a look at Delosi and you're right it looks good $104 shipped to France 100mg/ml. That's a three day delivery with Dhl. I have used LNW in the past and they provide a really good service and the nic was fine also

Yes I tried LNW salts they are good, a little darker than expected but vaped fine and were well priced with shipping. Unfortunately it seems I have a sensitivity to benzoic acid, it doesn't play nice with my asthma etc. I'm allergic to sodium benzoate the preservative as well.
So, I tried delosi nic salts, lighter in colour, would probably say a bit cleaner overall. It has a distinct taste though, it's a pleasent taste, Im pretty sure its the luvulinic acid. Vape on all might try wizard labs next I think I'm partial to nicotine ditartrate that was the first one I made