indeed I did.. lol. I have so many windows open it isn't even funny.. I think I need a third monitor! 8-o
Shut Down all suppliers that are not part of E-cig Association
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indeed I did.. lol. I have so many windows open it isn't even funny.. I think I need a third monitor! 8-o
Ok, I'll shoot out a few questions.
1.) was there an actual email sent out telling people to not buy from suppliers that are not part of their association?
2.) Does this association know what each of the businesses outside of their current members are doing?
3.) If yes to question 1, Can I get a copy of this email, I'd love to see if they are making false claims.
No one has ever asked me to be part of an association, and if they are now telling people "hey dont buy from him all of his stuff is tainted and doesn't have our approval" that would b e interesting to see.
* I have NOTHING against putting guidelines into place, nor do I have a problem with associations to further our goals as a community, but if your telling me I have to belong to your association or you'll run me out of town, and by the way I have to do thing 1 thing 2 thing 3 to belong. It's only a short hop to you telling me, sell at this price or your out. There is a line and it would need to be drawn, also are you planning on making people pay fees to be part of the "association".
1.) was there an actual email sent out telling people to not buy from suppliers that are not part of their association?
2.) Does this association know what each of the businesses outside of their current members are doing?
3.) If yes to question 1, Can I get a copy of this email, I'd love to see if they are making false claims.
No one has ever asked me to be part of an association, and if they are now telling people "hey dont buy from him all of his stuff is tainted and doesn't have our approval" that would b e interesting to see.
* I have NOTHING against putting guidelines into place, nor do I have a problem with associations to further our goals as a community, but if your telling me I have to belong to your association or you'll run me out of town, and by the way I have to do thing 1 thing 2 thing 3 to belong. It's only a short hop to you telling me, sell at this price or your out. There is a line and it would need to be drawn, also are you planning on making people pay fees to be part of the "association".
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Exactly. Completely agree Mindtwist69. Also a good question to ask is why, these resellers who are making this association, have any of them not put age verification or pop up or entry page warnings of liquid and it's uncertain nature? In the FDA investigations and hearing of Nicowater. Those were the first things they were looking for. That was in 2002 and was deemed unethical, why would it not be with these products? All everyone really had to do was follow the stuff they were looking for when banning the other substances that contained Nicotine that have been banned previously. Everyone is to blame though. We all forgot that we exist in a George Orwell novel and we were having way too much fun.
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I would suggest that if you are interested in continuing your business that it would be in your best interests to be a part of this association.
I'm saying this as a nobody consumer who doesn't have a dog in this fight other than wanting to continue to have access to this product.
Here's the reality the regulatory hammer is hanging over all your heads. And the forces arrayed against you are both well funded and politically powerful. There is no way that individually any of you can stand against them. There is very little chance that even by pooling your resources you might prevail. But a little chance is better than no chance which is the alternative.
If you are not a member of this association you should probably get some details on what would be involved in joining it. Sure you don't have too but if you benifit from their activities with out contributing yourself then you are simply a freeloader much like all those people who ..... about unions while enjoying their 40hr work weeks.
As a consumer I can't want to see a list of the suppliers who are a part of this organization I only hope that the two I currently use are on it otherwise I'm going to have to find someone else to buy from.
So no I don't think anyone is telling you that you have to join this organization but if you were smart you would.
I'll go out of my way to support independents if they can provide me with certification that the quality of their goods is unsurpassed. Associations are OK as long as they aren't overbearing. In my area, there is a group that attempts to make sure no vendors at farmers markets sell below a certain price. When big businesses do it, they sick the government goons on them for price fixing.
P*sses me off to no end to see associations trump free market pricing.
P*sses me off to no end to see associations trump free market pricing.
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THere is the RUB.
No supplier except TW is able to provide full documentation or certification to their E Juice. Hardware is a different ball of wax. Until the Association comes out with a mission statement and goals I will sit back and keep a watchful eye. What concerns me is that new suppliers wishing to get into the game might not have the capital to pay dues as a new supplier. Granted there are suppliers out there that already have stock, website, and exsisting clientel. However the new guys would not be able to join until they recoup their cost to cover the expenses for the new start up. At the rate of growth I have seen suppliers start up a new storefront at 3-4 per week now. Thoses guys don't have the backing like Njoy, or PS, or SE.
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you skex, but that type of language comes off as sounding quite like veiled threat/fear tactics. Especially since no one BUT the ECA knows what they stand for and/or what they have planned. Anyone who is truly smart would want to know a hell of a lot more than has been discussed here before they would sign on to an organization that haven't even revealed their purpose.
It's WAY too early in the game for giving carte blanche to the unknown...
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Well, I wasn't trying to be serious; I WAS serious. Maybe it won't be so funny when you see a few vendors shut down. I think many of us do not know or intentionally mislead people to believe that we are "campaigning" to prevent e-cigs becoming illegal. Folks! IT IS ALREADY ILLEGAL, pursuant to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act, Section 505 (21 USC 355) and other provisions therein.
We are campaigning to make the illegal product legal by, among other things, demonstrating that we ourselves can address the genuine public health concerns by ourselves, wihout government regulations.
However, as a consumer and vaper, I am so fed up with some of the "suppliers." So much, I am looking forward to the day when Chris Jensen at NBC shows up at one of these suppliers, show a video of 12-year boy ordering and receiving a syringe and a bottle laced with nicotine, but labeled as "Strawberry 11mg." Let's see how many senators going to stand next to us on that.
You know if anyone gets sick or die due to misuse of e-liquid, what's going to happen to the vendor? Reckless endangerment, criminally negligent homocide, ring any bell? We are talking about a real jail time. I and many customers are so fed up that in fact I am willing to file amicus curiae or affidavit to the sentencing and parole hearing, indicating that these vendors were fully aware of the danger and they had been amply warned multiple times.
Just to clarify, fraud is covered in RICO, but not reporting and complaining about somebody selling illegal products. Ongoing criminal enterprise, forfeiture of assets, sound familiar to you?
Selling illegal products anyway they see fit in wanton disregard of public safety for quick-bucks--American Dream Scarface edition? Tobacco and alcohol are tightly regulated BY government under the penalty of fine and jail term. We want to regulate e-cigs with harsh words and dirty look? Yeah right. Do you want government regulations (with permit and JAIL TERM)?
Frankly, I don't think many suppliers and their "alter-ego" on ECF understand the genuine frustration that many customers feel about them (some of them). Many of us are this close, this close to go to our senators, FDA, parent advocacy groups, and big pharmaceutical companies and ask them to regulate this industry and shut down many of you. Some of you are dragging down the whole PV community.
So what can I say? Keep that up and see what happens. Maybe government will give everyone a free pass to sell e-cigs anyway you want....... NOT! (okay, that was a joke).
That is a fair question for a response. However I think the ECA is still too new to establish self regulating guidelines.
Sounds like you took your persuasive writing tips from the Early Teamsters/Mafia guidebook.
Fuggetaboutit!
Can I start calling you Paulie Fatlips?
Considering that the only way to order from just about all of these folks online is Paypal, or maybe a credit card, I don't see minors being able to buy any of it without help from an adult. Then it becomes a 'contributing to the deliquency of a minor' issue.
You are required to be age 18 to open a Paypal account. If kids can't pay for it, why worry if they can see it on a web site?
I don't like the idea of any un-elected group telling me where i can and can't purchase my gear. Any un-elected self righteous group approving liquid for my use.
nope , the only way to go is big gov. regulation ..not a bunch of suppliers or users , no doubt un-qualified for anything ecig or safety related, telling me the 'safest' place to buy from.
ECA ??? what b0ll0x....
nope , the only way to go is big gov. regulation ..not a bunch of suppliers or users , no doubt un-qualified for anything ecig or safety related, telling me the 'safest' place to buy from.
ECA ??? what b0ll0x....
Listen here's the fact while people may think that they are some sort of rugged individuals who can fight the system all by themselves and don't need no allies against the man.
The reality is that Big Tobacco and Big Pharma don't have any qualms in working with each other.
So just what chance exactly do you think that a single poorly financed supplier stands against the likes of Philip Morris and Johnson and Johnson?
Or the American Cancer Society or any of the other groups that have joined together in this fight?
It's simple like Ben Franklin said over 200 years ago. You either hang together or your going to hang separately.
The original union organizers didn't beat scab just because they were angry thugs, the labor movement doesn't talk about solidarity for the sake of some sort of weird ideological idea. It was because they understood that those in power will use division amongst the weak to maintain their position.
The suppliers need some sort of trade group the truth is that this one is probably way too late already. They should should have had something like this going on a year ago when this was still under the regulatory radar.
Now it's damned near too late and frankly all the bellyaching and crying about how your being oppressed by this group of suppliers who are trying to get something constructive done and are committing their time effort and money to the cause while the whiners sit on the sidelines taking no risk waiting for someone else to rescue them.
And I maintain suppliers who sit on the sidelines during this fight and don't step up and help out don't deserve my business because you're just another freeloader.
If you are concerned about the shape of this assocaition then friggin join it and influence what it becomes donate money and time and you will have influence that's the way this stuff works.
If not I don't want to hear you crying about your bankruptcy when the ban hits full force.
Wow, that seems way over the top to me, willpower.
Plus, it is only arguable that ecigs fall within the Food and Drug Act definition of a drug or drug device. Just because someone at the FDA has declared it so does not make it so. Federal agencies have been shot down on their interpretation of federal statutes time and time again by the courts, just as sometimes they are upheld in their interpretations.
Thus, whether or not ecigs or the liquids alone are actually "illegal" ultimately remains to be seen, and this issue probably has to be decided in a court of law if not resolved to everyone's satisfaction short of litigation.
Oh, by the way you left out the definitional sections of the law. As you can see from the FDA letter posted here,
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-important-email-fda-supplier.html#post173081,
the relevant sections of the Food and Drug Act are:
"503(g)(1) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act) (21 U.S.C. 353(g)(1)) with their "drug" uses, as defined by section 201(g) of the Act (21 U.S.C. § 321(g))".
For the crucial definitions of a "drug" and "drug device" and "new drug", you can see the actual text of the statute here:
WAIS Document Retrieval
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When can we expect a "List" of approved suppliers Don...?
Serioulsy, how can you self regulate to keep out big tobacco and Pharma? they will get in if they want to, despite self regulations. When Hilter died, he left you in charge? You seem to be strong-arming the suppliers here, you want $ from them to join?
You can't control if we order from china and other counties...why put a kabosh on our US guys & gals....
I personally can see in a short period of time how things are completely getting out of hand and there needs to be some sort of regulation but not on the product as a whole. The Pv should be ok but as far as the liquid???? Like WillPower says, The product is already Illegal and this is because of No regulation. Am I for an association??? Not sure yet because the underground association has not shown us their cards yet. Until the ECA? lets "the people or community" know what their intentions are and Exactly what they as a whole are lobbying for or against, People like WillPower and others in this UNDERGROUND association will continue to get bombarded with negative feed back. I also can see and Agree with Retnia_Burns point that he has, That people are tired of being pushed around by Big government, Big cooperate money sucking greedy groups telling us what, and how the little entrepreneur should do to try not loose their assets they over the years worked so hard for. Yes people times are tough and the PV is a good opportunity for some to finally get some breathing room. How is the ECA going to control and regulate a growing industry in the US when China and their e-cig clones are hitting the streets harder than ever than before. Can they control China?? Can they control that you can buy a 901 for $30 shipped from HK?? DON"T THINK SO. Can they be made and regulated here in the US by our small suppliers to continue to be affordable?? Don't Think So. Heck If big pharm or big tobacco gets a hold of them where do you thing they are gonna come from? You guessed it China. We are a community of people and unless the community comes together as a whole Nobody is no where.
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History tells us that internal industry "regulation" has less to do with consumer protection and more to do with protecting those suppliers who are already established. Let consumers decide. Caveat emptor.
The guy who suggested this is not part of the new association. I've seen no member of the association agree with any of the ridiculous suggestions.
You guys are basically shadow boxing and undermining a group of people who are trying to accomplish goals that are in all our best interests. It doesn't matter if you think they will succeed, it has a hell of a lot better chance than manufacturing drama on a forum thread.
We could just wait for the association to publish a mission statement.
You guys are basically shadow boxing and undermining a group of people who are trying to accomplish goals that are in all our best interests. It doesn't matter if you think they will succeed, it has a hell of a lot better chance than manufacturing drama on a forum thread.
We could just wait for the association to publish a mission statement.
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