SOBER VAPERS - Vaping Sober - ROLLCALL!

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zoiDman

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      ... You're gunning for me for no reason. Just a ham handed excuse to call me deluded.

      STOP IT SURF.

      If you Truly believe that EVERYONE is Out to Get you then you have gone Off the Edge. And should consider Seeking some Consoling.

      I’ve Lost Track of How many People have Asked you to Take it Down a Notch. And how many Times People have Flat Out told you to Cool It.

      This Litany that Everyone is Against me is Starting to Look Funny. And Not Ha-Ha Funny. But Weird Funny.
       

      Caridwen

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        Yeah, thats what I've heard a lot of. My buddy told me that you are eventually told that if you can surrender to your peers, and admit that you need them to support you, then there is no religion in AA or NA. you can surrender to your peers, or a god, or a force. But the main thing is that you need to admit you cannot do it alone. I haven't been to an NA meeting yet. But I do routinely seek out guidance in a google search. When I finally jump off of my maintenance program I'm sure I will attend the NA meetings.

        I am so happy for you and proud of you Plumes!
         

        Big Juicy

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          And to think you're claiming you're not making this personal.

          The grasping is all coming from you, d. You've tried over and over to accuse me of generalizing. Of bias and so forth. None of it is valid. I never claimed I was unbiased. I never claimed my opinion was fact. When you pointed out a post that looked like an absolute I clarified. Now you won't let it go. Why? Because you're not engaging in an honest debate. You're looking to score personal points against me. Thus your ongoing and failing attempt to make the word "deluded" stick.

          ...said the guy whose avatar advertises "The Guild of Calamitous Intent"

          this thread was actually nice, productive, and above all else OF SERVICE TO THE STILL SUFFERING ALCOHOLIC this morning until someone with calamitous intent jumped in yet again.

          Honestly unbelievable.
           

          Surf Monkey

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            Dude...seriously...

            this has NOTHING to do with the quote that you cannot back up...nor is it half as clever as you think. And there is nothing "tricky" about data. You said when AA was formed that "religious" and "faith" were considered the same thing. Um, no, but ok... PROVE IT. You can either back up your claims with FACTS or else you are just talking out of someplace other than your mouth.

            Why so torked out about it?

            I'm confident in my statement. National attitudes towards religion and faith were vastly different back in the 1930s. Consider this:

            Faith language in AA goes back to the group’s founders, Bill Wilson and Robert Holbrook Smith. Six of the 12 steps, as prescribed in the original 1939 “Big Book,” refer to God either explicitly or implicitly. Step three, for example, cites “a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.”

            Source: Alcoholics Anonymous wrestles with its spiritual roots | Religion News Service

            Since then AA has revised their language in order to accommodate the rising number of self identifying atheists.

            Source: Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            Before the rise of atheism the word "faith" within the context used by AA was synonymous with religious faith, as proven by the original text of the Big Book.

            So, scoff all you like. I'm not wrong.
             

            Big Juicy

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              Possibly this would be better in the Lounge?

              It would probably be better in Social Groups - Health & Wellness, where agitators to those with health and wellness issues have have a much shorter leash with moderators. That is just MHO. This actually has had moments of good stuff that consistently are derailed by those seeking to start trouble. Pretty unfortunate.

              Of course, the safe haven here at ECF would be Clean & Sober Vapers
               

              Surf Monkey

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                Please Do.

                I don't think Plumes ever Wanted this to be another OUTSIDE "Debate". I think he just wanted to Meet Some Like Minded People.

                Please move this if it is Possible.

                Then why did you work so hard to make it one? I said from the beginning that the thread didn't belong in this section and I'm pretty sure you challenged me on it.

                To paraphrase Groucho: "Whatever Surf wants, I'm against it!"
                 

                zoiDman

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                  It would probably be better in Social Groups - Health & Wellness, where agitators to those with health and wellness issues have have a much shorter leash with moderators. That is just MHO. This actually has had moments of good stuff that consistently are derailed by those seeking to start trouble. Pretty unfortunate.

                  Of course, the safe haven here at ECF would be Clean & Sober Vapers

                  The Lounge I think would be Fine.

                  If it was Moved from the OUTSIDE, I think things could get Back On Track.
                   

                  Surf Monkey

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                    STOP IT SURF.

                    If you Truly believe that EVERYONE is Out to Get you then you have gone Off the Edge. And should consider Seeking some Consoling.

                    I’ve Lost Track of How many People have Asked you to Take it Down a Notch. And how many Times People have Flat Out told you to Cool It.

                    This Litany that Everyone is Against me is Starting to Look Funny. And Not Ha-Ha Funny. But Weird Funny.

                    Bandwagon BS. Grow up, z.
                     

                    zoiDman

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                      Then why did you work so hard to make it one? I said from the beginning that the thread didn't belong in this section and I'm pretty sure you challenged me on it.

                      To paraphrase Groucho: "Whatever Surf wants, I'm against it!"

                      Is it Mandatory that you Have to Post in All OUTSIDE Threads?

                      You have been asked to Let Just One Thread Exist without Turning into a Debate About Sobriety. And Now you have been Asked to Not Turn This Into a Debate about Religion.

                      Why Can't you just Let Thread Exist without it Having to Be a Debate?

                      Everyone Else has Said their Peace and then Let It Go. Why do you have to Keep Replying to Everything?
                       

                      Big Juicy

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                        Why so torked out about it?

                        I'm confident in my statement. National attitudes towards religion and faith were vastly different back in the 1930s. Consider this:



                        Source: Alcoholics Anonymous wrestles with its spiritual roots | Religion News Service

                        Since then AA has revised their language in order to accommodate the rising number of self identifying atheists.

                        Source: Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        Before the rise of atheism the word "faith" within the context used by AA was synonymous with religious faith, as proven by the original text of the Big Book.

                        So, scoff all you like. I'm not wrong.

                        This is the final thing I will say on this. For the sake of argument, I will ASSUME Surf Monkey actually is interested in the this topic and in the truth.

                        I have read the original transcripts of the Big Book...as well a various other literature including "As They Saw It" by AA # (I think it was #3) and you are dead wrong. As you stated, "faith" and "religion" were absolutely not synonymous in the 1930's nor at any time in history. Clearly you do not know the definition of religion. You could learn, if you wanted. Regardless, specific to AA and to your claims, regardless of its roots this has never, ever been the case and at no time in history were "faith" and religion" been the same thing. If you truly want to know the truth then step aside and go do the work...do the research. If not, seriously, just go away. This thread was started by a guy who is dying. He is looking for like minded people, people to help and support him in the vaping community. You of course KNOW this, or would if you re-read the original post in this thread. Just because it is in the Outside doesn't mean it is blood in the water...or at least shouldn't be taken that way if you had any kind of ethics or concern for other around here at all. Speaking for myself, I have jumped on this not because I am taking it personal (though I admit a character defect of mine is I am not tolerant of stupid people nor of agitators for agitations sake), but because I like others are trying to steer this thread back to its purpose...to reach out to and help a guy.

                        Ok...and I swore I wouldnt do this...

                        ok...done now.
                         

                        zoiDman

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                          Bandwagon BS. Grow up, z.

                          I'm Being VERY Serious Right Now. People are Starting to Get Concerned if you are Doing OK?

                          Because for the Last couple of Months, you have been Acting Very Strange.

                          You're Inside a Thread which a Person Wants to Meet Sober Vapers. And you are Telling People what is Up with AA.

                          And you have Never Been to an AA Meeting. Or have Read the Big Book or the 12 Steps / 12 Traditions.
                           
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                          Surf Monkey

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                            I'm Being VERY Serious Right Now. People are Starting to Get Concerned if you are Doing OK?

                            Because for the Last couple of Months, you have been Acting Very Strange.

                            You Inside a Thread which a Person Wants to Meet Sober Vapers. And you are Telling People what is Up with AA.

                            And you have Never Been to an AA Meeting. Or have Read the Big Book or the 12 Steps / 12 Traditions.

                            Parroting Bones' misguided and but-hurt blatherings doesn't make YOU right, z. Sorry.
                             

                            Surf Monkey

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                              This is the final thing I will say on this. For the sake of argument, I will ASSUME Surf Monkey actually is interested in the this topic and in the truth.

                              I have read the original transcripts of the Big Book...as well a various other literature including "As They Saw It" by AA # (I think it was #3) and you are dead wrong. As you stated, "faith" and "religion" were absolutely not synonymous in the 1930's nor at any time in history. Clearly you do not know the definition of religion. You could learn, if you wanted. Regardless, specific to AA and to your claims, regardless of its roots this has never, ever been the case and at no time in history were "faith" and religion" been the same thing. If you truly want to know the truth then step aside and go do the work...do the research. If not, seriously, just go away. This thread was started by a guy who is dying. He is looking for like minded people, people to help and support him in the vaping community. You of course KNOW this, or would if you re-read the original post in this thread. Just because it is in the Outside doesn't mean it is blood in the water...or at least shouldn't be taken that way if you had any kind of ethics or concern for other around here at all. Speaking for myself, I have jumped on this not because I am taking it personal (though I admit a character defect of mine is I am not tolerant of stupid people nor of agitators for agitations sake), but because I like others are trying to steer this thread back to its purpose...to reach out to and help a guy.

                              Ok...and I swore I wouldnt do this...

                              ok...done now.

                              Your whole thesis hinges on ignoring context. To that extent it's weak and my point absolutely stands. The implications of the word "faith" in the context it was used by AA originally was unambiguous (even if you ignore outright references to god.)
                               

                              dragginfly

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                                When you pointed out a post that looked like an absolute I clarified. Now you won't let it go. Why? Because you're not engaging in an honest debate. You're looking to score personal points against me. Thus your ongoing and failing attempt to make the word "deluded" stick.

                                Let's deconstruct this house of cards.

                                First...

                                Thus your ongoing and failing attempt to make the word "deluded" stick.

                                It's not a fail, and it doesn't need help from me. But your
                                conclusion moot. It's built off falsehood. Specifically...

                                You're looking to score personal points against me.

                                Again with this unsupported claim. I know for FACT that is false. If you care to read
                                back to the beginning of this thread, I have repeatedly supported your points and your
                                freedom to make your points. At the first disagreement with one of your points, you
                                throw in "personal vendetta" as a deflection. You don't like losing.

                                Finally...

                                Now you won't let it go. Why?

                                Another false supposition. I did let it go. My further comments were in response
                                to additional comments you posted. Your supposition as to "why" the debate
                                continued is built on a false premise.

                                Now, who's not being honest?
                                 

                                zoiDman

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                              • Apr 16, 2010
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                                  Let's Do a Quick Re-Cap.

                                  A person has Never Been to an A.A. Meeting
                                  Has Never Read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
                                  Has Never Read the 12 Steps / 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous
                                  Had a "friend" who was in Recovery

                                  And they are Telling Active Members of Alcoholics Anonymous what AA Is. And What it Isn't.

                                  And when Multiple People, some he considers his friends, tells Him that he is Off Base, he Argues with Every Single One of them. And Says that People Are Out to Get Him.

                                  Wow... If that Isn't Trolling a Thread, maybe somebody can Tell Me what is?

                                  And then that person can Argue about the Definition of a Troll.

                                  :facepalm:
                                   
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                                  Big Juicy

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                                    This comic came to mind...

                                    NKK.jpg
                                     
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