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SOBER VAPERS - Vaping Sober - ROLLCALL!

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Zak Rabbit

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    I'm not trolling in the least. In fact, I didn't even criticize AA. I never said it didn't work or there were bad people running it. I simply stated it's religious basis. I think it's something someone who is choosing a recovery program might want to know about. Actually, it's very telling to me the amount of vitriol that has been unleashed over a simple statement highlighting what's at the core of this particular recovery program.

    No vitriol that I've seen. You made an incorrect statement. I have yet to see you counter any of my points. Unlike any bible, the book Alcoholics Anonymous is pretty clear on what part religion plays in its program.

    Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.
     

    quiter

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      I'm not trolling in the least. In fact, I didn't even criticize AA. I never said it didn't work or there were bad people running it. I simply stated it's religious basis. I think it's something someone who is choosing a recovery program might want to know about. Actually, it's very telling to me the amount of vitriol that has been unleashed over a simple statement highlighting what's at the core of this particular recovery program.

      Pav calling it a "front for religion" is criticism and anyone who has been helped by it will see it that way and take offense. Honestly what you and surf have both done together (it's taken that way if you meant it to be or not) is equated AA with bible thumpers. Who likes to be attacked in that way? They felt the two of you were attacking them. You have to admit you could have chosen a better way to go about making your argument if your intention wasn't to be insulting or to criticize.

      The "vitriol" as you put it was them defending something they apparently hold dear from both of your criticisms and insults. They don't want to be lumped in with bible thumpers who go around preaching to people. Can you blame them?

      The only thing telling is that you and surf are both showing a true lack of empathy. As I asked Surf, why not go someplace else if you want to get into a fight? This thread really wasn't set up with that intention and you and surf know it wasn't.

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      Mac

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        AA is not a religious organization. I have attended a number of meetings and I immediately honed in on the higher power aspect and explained how I felt about god. My hostility towards such an entity and my bitterness on the topic. I expected to be asked to leave for it as I have been every time I have discussed the topic in earnest while in a church. The people at those meetings were totally supportive and were not offended. Many of them could relate to what I was expressing. Several of them went further then that and explained in detail how you do not need to submit to a theoretical being to be successful in the program. I was advised. (By multiple members in different groups across several states) that the "Higher power" aspect is a metaphor and is really about letting go of things beyond your control. You take ownership of your actions, not the circumstances that surrounded them. You have little say in what the world looks like but have complete control over how you respond to your environment. It's not about praising god. It's about letting go of the idea that there always has to be an answer to every problem or a meaning behind every time someone is a douche to you or things go wrong. You own your actions. Not those of everyone else in the world.

        As far as I can tell AA is a bunch of people who know real pain, have risen above it and volunteer their time to help others do the same while simultaneously keeping themselves honest in the process. If that's what religion was all about there would be no war. Sorry SM, but you are flat out wrong on this one. :2c:
         
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        Pav

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          Sorry SM, but you are flat out wrong on this one. :2c:

          You should yell at me Mac. I started it. And I'm still not convinced otherwise. I stand by my initial statement. Most Churches will not tell you to leave if you state you don't believe in God. In fact, that's usually a good motivator for them to reach out further to you.
           

          quiter

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            You should yell at me Mac. I started it. And I'm still not convinced otherwise. I stand by my initial statement. Most Churches will not tell you to leave if you state you don't believe in God. In fact, that's usually a good motivator for them to reach out further to you.

            You really don't get it do you? They are not trying to convert you to a religion. Apples and oranges. Now do you really want to keep on offending people with this? If so then I have to agree that you are just trying to start a flame war. Seriously why not just agree to disagree on this and move on? You are not going to convince anyone and obviously you have made up your mind and no amount of evidence is going to make you change your mind. They have more than made their case and you still won't listen, so just drop it already.
             

            Mac

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              You should yell at me Mac.
              The only yelling I do these days is into a microphone. :)

              I started it. And I'm still not convinced otherwise. I stand by my initial statement.
              I'm telling you the whole higher power thing is a relatively small part of that culture. I don't doubt that there may be individuals pushing a religious agenda who are present in some groups. But they don't speak for the entire organization and don't have a monopoly on the 12 step concept.

              Most Churches will not tell you to leave if you state you don't believe in God. In fact, that's usually a good motivator for them to reach out further to you.
              But that's the rub. I never tell anyone I don't believe in god. Just that god as described in the majority of religious texts is a petty, bully, loaded down with human flaws and worthy of little more then hostility and cynicism. Walk into a church some time and explain it as I have, calmly and politely and they will not let you stay long because they will be afraid you'll scare away the rest of their customers. As far as AA, I thought the same thing walking in. Oh great here comes the preaching and religious hypocrisy being shoved down my throat. I was ready to be over it before I started because I have such serious trust issues with organized religion. I was really surprised to find out how wrong I was. Sorry, but it's not a religious organization.
               

              zoiDman

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                AA is not a religious organization. I have attended a number of meetings and I immediately honed in on the higher power aspect and explained how I felt about god. My hostility towards such an entity and my bitterness on the topic. I expected to be asked to leave for it as I have been every time I have discussed the topic in earnest while in a church. The people at those meetings were totally supportive and were not offended. Many of them could relate to what I was expressing. Several of them went further then that and explained in detail how you do not need to submit to a theoretical being to be successful in the program. I was advised. (By multiple members in different groups across several states) that the "Higher power" aspect is a metaphor and is really about letting go of things beyond your control. You take ownership of your actions, not the circumstances that surrounded them. You have little say in what the world looks like but have complete control over how you respond to your environment. It's not about praising god. It's about letting go of the idea that there always has to be an answer to every problem or a meaning behind every time someone is a douche to you or things go wrong. You own your actions. Not those of everyone else in the world.

                As far as I can tell AA is a bunch of people who know real pain, have risen above it and volunteer their time to help others do the same while simultaneously keeping themselves honest in the process. If that's what religion was all about there would be no war. Sorry SM, but you are flat out wrong on this one. :2c:

                Right On Mac.

                I think AA meetings are sometimes Misunderstood by People who have Never Been because people can't fathom the idea that an AA meeting has Only One Real Function.

                "Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."
                (Tradition #5)

                And...

                The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
                (Tradition #3)

                People seem to want to find the "Catch" in AA. It's a Front for Religion. Their going to want me to Give them Money Later. There going to tell me I have to Volunteer My Time handing out Pamphlets Door to Door on a Sunday. etc.

                But once they go to some Meetings, they Quickly Realize that an AA Meeting is Nothing but a Bunch of People who share a Single Common Goal of either Achieving Sobriety or Maintaining Sobriety.

                I can Understand someone Jaded by Religion not wanting to Go to AA Meetings because of Misconceptions. Fine. But I think Spreading Misconceptions is a Huge Disservice by Attempting to make AA Sound Like Something that it Isn't.

                I wonder How Many could have put the pieces of Their Life back together thru a Program like AA but Didn't because they heard that AA was Nothing but a Religion?

                I couldn't give a Rat's Azz what SM or PAV or what Anyone Else thinks. And I'm Not Posting to Convince them to Change Their Minds.

                I'm posting so if their is One Person out there who is Having a Problem with Alcohol, that they can know that AA can Help You if they Want to Help Yourself. And to go to an AA Meeting and talk to some people like Mac Did and Find Out for Yourself.
                 

                Plumes.91

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                  For what its worth, every time I have been asked or told to go to an NA meeting in the last 4 years, (and I've been asked or told to go to an NA meeting many, many times now) I have asked the person recommending it if it was all just a religious meeting. Every time I've asked this question or stated that I had heard it eventually brought you down a path toward religion, or every time I've stated that I've heard rumors of AA and NA being almost cult-like, I've been given the same answers. They all say "They are spiritual based." and "You don't have to be catholic or christian, you don't have to have a structured popular religion as an influence in your life." and "At a certain point in the 12 steps, your asked to surrender to your peers that have had more experience in quitting, and your asked to surrender to a higher power if your comfortable doing so." And "You don't have to be religious, but believing that there is something that created this universe, the stars, and the planets that orbit those stars, whether it be a conscious being, or what humans would classify as a supernatural force, or glue, or primordial soup, that is encouraged and spoken of at some points in the program." And "If there is a religious man or woman that likes to talk, then you will hear about religion influencing sobriety, if there isn't, you wont"

                  So thats what I've got. I've never opened the book. I'd have to imagine that there are religious points in the book, considering the man that wrote the book in 1933 was a religious man and he did model the steps around the values of the christian bible, right? So the book could possibly have some religious parts to it, but as far as the meetings go... What I have been told by numerous different people, is that they are not inherently religious based. The content of an AA or NA meeting depends almost solely on the characters that show up for the meeting. AA & NA take anyone, from Atheists to Satanists to Jews. The majority of the book does not specifically speak about the christian religions, rather it speaks for the lessons and values of the christian doctrine in a way that leaves the dogmatic traditions and specific scriptures of the religion out of it. But at one point in the program, spirituality IS discussed. (but from what I hear it is unbiased discussion that all boils down to the suggestion that spirituality in general can help those in need of guidance out of an addict lifestyle) And like I said, it can depend on who is there. If a really talky muslim is there, you may hear about his or her religion more than any other. If a Pagan is there, you may hear about his or her religion.
                   
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                  zoiDman

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                    For what its worth, every time I have been asked or told to go to an NA meeting in the last 4 years, (and I've been asked or told to go to an NA meeting many, many times now) I have asked the person recommending it if it was all just a religious meeting. Every time I've asked this question or stated that I had heard it eventually brought you down a path toward religion, or every time I've stated that I've heard rumors of AA and NA being almost cult-like, I've been given the same answers. They all say "They are spiritual based." and "You don't have to be catholic or christian, you don't have to have a structured popular religion as an influence in your life." and "At a certain point in the 12 steps, your asked to surrender to your peers that have had more experience in quitting, and your asked to surrender to a higher power if your comfortable doing so." And "You don't have to be religious, but believing that there is something that created this universe, the stars, and the planets that orbit those stars, whether it be a conscious being, or what humans would classify as a supernatural force, or glue, or primordial soup, that is encouraged and spoken of at some points in the program." And "If there is a religious man or woman that likes to talk, then you will hear about religion influencing sobriety, if there isn't, you wont"

                    So thats what I've got. I've never opened the book. I'd have to imagine that there are religious points in the book, considering the man that wrote the book in 1933 was a religious man and he did model the steps around the values of the christian bible, right? So the book could possibly have some religious parts to it, but as far as the meetings go... What I have been told by numerous different people, is that they are not inherently religious based. The content of an AA or NA meeting depends almost solely on the characters that show up for the meeting.

                    Step 2 says... "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."

                    If a Person wants to believe that this "Power" is a Religious God, Great. I know that I personally had a Lot of Problems with Organized Religions when I came into AA. Still do in Many Ways.

                    But when I first started to go to meetings, I belied that it was the People Inside the Rooms of AA and AA as a Whole that was the "Power" that was Greater than Myself which could help me.
                     
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                    Plumes.91

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                      Yeah, thats what I've heard a lot of. My buddy told me that you are eventually told that if you can surrender to your peers, and admit that you need them to support you, then there is no religion in AA or NA. you can surrender to your peers, or a god, or a force. But the main thing is that you need to admit you cannot do it alone. I haven't been to an NA meeting yet. But I do routinely seek out guidance in a google search. When I finally jump off of my maintenance program I'm sure I will attend the NA meetings.
                       

                      Big Juicy

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                        AA is just a fellowship, a group of people with a similar purpose coming together. The program is in the book. If a meeting isnt working for you for any reason, find another one. The program is outlined in the first 164 pages. If you have a true desire to stay sober, crack the book and get a sponsor. Otherwise you are chumping yourself, period, and odds are at best you will be a dry, miserable SOB...and at worst you will drink again.
                         

                        zoiDman

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                          ... But the main thing is that you need to admit you cannot do it alone. ...

                          For me, that was a Turning Point.

                          Because I tried just about Everything on this List (and a Few Not on this List) and Nothing worked

                          "Here are some of the methods we have tried:

                          Drinking beer only
                          limiting the number of drinks
                          never drinking alone
                          never drinking in the morning
                          drinking only at home
                          never having it in the house
                          never drinking during business hours
                          drinking only at parties
                          switching from scotch to brandy (Peppermint Schnapps!)
                          drinking only natural wines
                          agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job
                          taking a trip
                          not taking a trip
                          swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath)
                          taking more physical exercise
                          reading inspirational books
                          going to health farms and sanitariums
                          accepting voluntary commitment to asylums

                          —we could increase the list ad infinitum."

                          Nothing worked because I was Running My Own Program - Alone.

                          I don't know abut all that Surrender to the Group thing. I've never heard that in the Meetings I go/have gone to. But you Definitely have to Surrender and be Honest to Yourself.

                          And that is Why Step One is Step One.

                          "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable."

                          BTW - You can Replace the word Alcohol with Just about any other Addiction and the Program of AA works the Same Way.
                           
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