TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[TheBloke]

For anyone who cares (and why would you really) looks like my 2380 MIGHT ship tomorrow...Ive forgotten why I wanted one almost...lol!

...so this is where everyone chips in telling me what a great device it is and worth the wait and I wont regret it...etc etc..

Awesome, I had been meaning to ask you what was happening with that. The tube form factor hasn't been nearly as bad as I feared - and in fact overall I like it, because of its allowing different battery configurations. 2x350 or 2x490 is a nice compact package, with high max watts and acceptable battery life (not more than 1x650 but you get more watts out of it.)

The 510 is awesome - lovely strong spring which you can feel 'bite' as you tighten down, meaning you get a great connection without feeling any need to over-tighten.

I won't ever like the single button system. I'm used to it now, and I can cope with it (the more you memorise the order of the menus, the quicker it is to use), but it'll never be 'good', merely 'bearable'. The screen is too small, and doesn't show information it easily could, especially given it's meant to be a high tech device (eg limiting ohms to two digits in the menu, and one digit on the main display.)

But the TC is great and doubly so with TCR adjustment, and that's the big draw of the device. And even once the dna 200 is out, the Dicodes will remain the only accurate TC mod with easy TCR adjustment; the dna's method is theoretically much more powerful, but it requires special software to use. It remains to be seen how user friendly and easy that is - there's talk of CSV import/export files so presumably we can set up Ti, SS, Resitherm files and it will only be a couple of clicks each time to swap. But it's never going to be as easy and convenient as selecting it on the device itself.

So I'm still glad I've got mine.

 

[funkyrudi]

The other day I wanted to check out some possibilities to verify the static resistance of some atties like the K4 and so I started with a dripper with a fixed positive pole and shorted it on the deck. Waidea and Hcigar said immediately atomizer short and after a second push on the fire button 0,00 Ohm, but I´m still not sure whether they measured the resistance. The KX VF Mini showed atomizer short and after a second push the box asked for new or old and then measured the short with 0.02 Ohm. My quite precise ( above 0.2 Ohm) atomizer Ohm meter measured 0.00 Ohm.

So my KX Mini measured my Nickel build with 0.15 Ohm and the SXK 0.11 Ohm. So it`s the same 0.04 Ohm, but if my KX is really 0.02 to high, it`s only 0.02 Ohm


Atomizer SXK------KX M------DNA------Wai------Ohm m------Keithley 580 Micro-Ohmmete

FeV Nickel 0.11------0.15------0.15------0.16-----0.09------0.1491

K4 Titan 0.42------0.48------0.49------0.50------0,44------0.4986

Rose Kant 0,95------1.08------1.04------1.10------1.04------1.0925

Rose2 Kan 1.06------1.20------1.14------1.21------1.17------1.2170

Orchfun 0.52------0.61------0.59------0.64------0.56------0.6147

Taifun GT2 0.61------0.70------0.70-------0.73-------0.66------new coil

I guess my Waidea has still a ground issue

SXK short test 0.00 Ohm

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Atomizer SXK------KX M------DNA------Wai------Ohm m------Keithley 580 Micro-Ohmmete

FeV Nickel 0.11------0.15------0.15------0.16-----0.09------0.1491

K4 Titan 0.42------0.48------0.49------0.50------0,44------0.4986

Rose Kant 0,95------1.08------1.04------1.10------1.04------1.0925

Rose2 Kan 1.06------1.20------1.14------1.21------1.17------1.2170

Orchfun 0.52------0.61------0.59------0.64------0.56------0.6147

Taifun GT2 0.61------0.70------0.70-------0.73-------0.66------new coil

My Kelvin probes arrived
I added the measured Ohm values

 

[tchavei]

Tony, so sorry to hear about your.. incident. I am trying not to laugh at the circumstances

Thanks again for your kind offer of help. But I've found a much simpler and quicker solution. I just bought a HCigar HB40 version 3, which has the authentic DNA 40 with the atty-lock feature and C/F temps, so it's one of the later revisions (of the small screen board.)

It was £45 Buy it Now on eBay, or only £5 more than the DNA 40 chip on its own! There were others starting at £60 for an auction, so this was a super bargain. Fingers crossed it's actually working and not a fake But I'm not aware of any HCigar HB40 clones and the seller specifically said it was genuine and in good condition, and he has 100% feedback selling other vaping stuff so hopefully it's all legit.

So I shall do some authentic DNA 40 testing as soon as I can. And hopefully before that post some results from my the temp testing I've been doing the last couple of days, but first I still need to do more tests to confirm and understand my first (interesting) results.

Hey, no problem. Whatever is easier for you. Just wanted you to know that I would do it, no problem.

If you want to get rid of your dna, I might be interested since my screen is half shot and I can't decide if I should get another dna, just the screen to solder or leave it as is as it is still functional.

Cheers

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

Hey guys. I've been having great fun.

First the temperature sensing worked really well, then it didn't seem to work at all. I've spent the better part of an entire day fiddling about, moving multiple probes, making four different builds on four different attys, testing literally every single one of my TC mods.

Latterly what I really couldn't understand: all my mods were recording too high. Set them to 200°C, get anywhere up to 240°C. Set it for 400°F, get 450+°F. This could only mean one thing - I was measuring it wrong, or there was something wrong the the equipment. Had I burnt out my probes? Nope, same with multiples. Were the bare wire probes in fact shorting the coil, even when I was sure they weren't? Ooh at first, maybe.. oh no, definitely the same when the probe is hanging in mid-air in the middle of the coil.

Has to be something wrong with the measuring equipment though. Hmm, how did Busardo do it now that he's on a probe system? I'm sure he's got some super fancy $1000 system of course.. oh no wait, he's got the exact same UNI-T thermometer I have! And we have one mod in common, the IPV4, which he shows as bang on the money and for me, like all other mods in the last 24 hours, it's way over.

What the hell could it be?

Well, as they say, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

My damn fing Ni200 does not have the expected coefficient Instead of 0.006 - 0.0062 which is the standard figure that all mods seem to expect,and which Dicodes tell you to use, mine is way lower.

I have two types of Ni200, both from Crazy Wire - "Hard Finish" which is hard drawn and "soft finish" which is annealed. The Hard Drawn has a TCR around 0.005 (500 on Dicodes' scale); the Annealed is even worse, with a TCR around 0.0045 (450). EDIT: Actually I think both might be around 0.0045 - 0.00455, with variations coming from SR in the builds.

This means that the entire time I used Nickel I have been getting temps anywhere from 40-60°C too high I was unknowingly compensating for it a lot of the time, quite often setting attys to 380°F or so.

Suddenly, SXK's "Nickel Purity" of which we had all thought - before we knew it was a general TCR scale - "who the hell would need that.." Well, apparently, this is why it's needed! I just checked Crazy and they say the wire I have "max 99.6%, min 99.0%" - I just googled and apparently that's on-spec, Ni200 has to have a minimum of 99%, not 99.6%.

This is absolutely not what I expected to find when I started this temp testing, but it is perhaps very important news - perhaps just for me and other Crazy Wire customers, but possibly also for the wider world - who knows how much US and Euro Ni200 actually has a much lower TCR than expected? SXK are suddenly seeming a lot more prescient than we gave them credit for!

Anyway, now I have finally established that a) I am not going crazy b) I can actually record accurate temp figures as I first thought I could, I can now go and do the testing I planned to do hours ago!

 

[tchavei]

Hey guys. I've been having great fun.

First the temperature sensing worked really well, then it didn't seem to work at all. I've spent the better part of an entire day fiddling about, moving multiple probes, making four different builds on four different attys, testing literally every single one of my TC mods.

Latterly what I really couldn't understand: all my mods were recording too high. Set them to 200°C, get anywhere up to 240°C. Set it for 400°F, get 450+°F. This could only mean one thing - I was measuring it wrong, or there was something wrong the the equipment. Had I burnt out my probes? Nope, same with multiples. Were the bare wire probes in fact shorting the coil, even when I was sure they weren't? Ooh at first, maybe.. oh no, definitely the same when the probe is hanging in mid-air in the middle of the coil.

Has to be something wrong with the measuring equipment though. Hmm, how did Busardo do it now that he's on a probe system? I'm sure he's got some super fancy $1000 system of course.. oh no wait, he's got the exact same UNI-T thermometer I have! And we have one mod in common, the IPV4, which he shows as bang on the money and for me, like all other mods in the last 24 hours, it's way over.

What the hell could it be?

Well, as they say, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

My damn fing Ni200 does not have the expected coefficient Instead of 0.006 - 0.0062 which is the standard figure that all mods seem to expect,and which Dicodes tell you to use, mine is way lower.

I have two types of Ni200, both from Crazy Wire - "Hard Finish" which is hard drawn and "soft finish" which is annealed. The Hard Drawn has a TCR around 0.005 (500 on Dicodes' scale); the Annealed is even worse, with a TCR around 0.0045 (450).

This means that the entire time I used Nickel I have been getting temps anywhere from 40-60°C too high I was unknowingly compensating for it a lot of the time, quite often setting attys to 380°F or so.

Suddenly, SXK's "Nickel Purity" of which we had all thought - before we knew it was a general TCR scale - "who the hell would need that.." Well, apparently, this is why it's needed! I just checked Crazy and they say the wire I have "max 99.6%, min 99.0%" - I just googled and apparently that's on-spec, Ni200 has to have a minimum of 99%, not 99.6%.

This is absolutely not what I expected to find when I started this temp testing, but it is perhaps very important news - perhaps just for me and other Crazy Wire customers, but possibly also for the wider world - who knows how much US and Euro Ni200 actually has a much lower TCR than expected? SXK are suddenly seeming a lot more prescient than we gave them credit for!

Anyway, now I have finally established that a) I am not going crazy b) I can actually record accurate temp figures as I first thought I could, I can now go and do the testing I planned to do hours ago!

Not sure all wire is like that but I'm sure there are tolerances.

99% is way cheaper than 99.6% which might explain the 'awesome' prices crazy wire has compared to other vendors?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

Hey guys. I've been having great fun.

First the temperature sensing worked really well, then it didn't seem to work at all. I've spent the better part of an entire day fiddling about, moving multiple probes, making four different builds on four different attys, testing literally every single one of my TC mods.

Latterly what I really couldn't understand: all my mods were recording too high. Set them to 200°C, get anywhere up to 240°C. Set it for 400°F, get 450+°F. This could only mean one thing - I was measuring it wrong, or there was something wrong the the equipment. Had I burnt out my probes? Nope, same with multiples. Were the bare wire probes in fact shorting the coil, even when I was sure they weren't? Ooh at first, maybe.. oh no, definitely the same when the probe is hanging in mid-air in the middle of the coil.

Has to be something wrong with the measuring equipment though. Hmm, how did Busardo do it now that he's on a probe system? I'm sure he's got some super fancy $1000 system of course.. oh no wait, he's got the exact same UNI-T thermometer I have! And we have one mod in common, the IPV4, which he shows as bang on the money and for me, like all other mods in the last 24 hours, it's way over.

What the hell could it be?

Well, as they say, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

My damn fing Ni200 does not have the expected coefficient Instead of 0.006 - 0.0062 which is the standard figure that all mods seem to expect,and which Dicodes tell you to use, mine is way lower.

I have two types of Ni200, both from Crazy Wire - "Hard Finish" which is hard drawn and "soft finish" which is annealed. The Hard Drawn has a TCR around 0.005 (500 on Dicodes' scale); the Annealed is even worse, with a TCR around 0.0045 (450).

This means that the entire time I used Nickel I have been getting temps anywhere from 40-60°C too high I was unknowingly compensating for it a lot of the time, quite often setting attys to 380°F or so.

Suddenly, SXK's "Nickel Purity" of which we had all thought - before we knew it was a general TCR scale - "who the hell would need that.." Well, apparently, this is why it's needed! I just checked Crazy and they say the wire I have "max 99.6%, min 99.0%" - I just googled and apparently that's on-spec, Ni200 has to have a minimum of 99%, not 99.6%.

This is absolutely not what I expected to find when I started this temp testing, but it is perhaps very important news - perhaps just for me and other Crazy Wire customers, but possibly also for the wider world - who knows how much US and Euro Ni200 actually has a much lower TCR than expected? SXK are suddenly seeming a lot more prescient than we gave them credit for!

Anyway, now I have finally established that a) I am not going crazy b) I can actually record accurate temp figures as I first thought I could, I can now go and do the testing I planned to do hours ago!

I've got a dripper on my SXK and that's the one that gave me an accurate temp in the water test so I've assumed that the spreadsheet predicted coefficient of 45 is OK. I'm wondering now if I should be extra careful to keep that wick soaking wet or should lower the coefficient setting.

What's your guess?

Have you run the water test on the same units that are giving you the high temp readings?


Duane

 

[vapealone]

for mortals maybe but the way you churn out the clapton wire, I imagine it wont last too long!!!

On the contrary
Those bloody Claptons just simply refuse to wear off. I change them out of sheer boredom only. They hardly ever accumulate that ugly muddy juice residue my other coils do. One quick dry burn and they are good to go another week-fortnight.
Not to mention that I use Ni and A1 for my Claptons and I use Alloy120 for normal coils as its resistance too low for a core and too high for a wrapper.

 

[TheBloke]

Crazy's price on Ni200 is same as Stealth and most other places, so they don't have that excuse.

I've just ordered some tempered and annealed spools from Stealth so that I can compare, hopefully on Friday.

@druckle my early testing of SXK was clouded by the above TCR issues, but the "hot off the press" news is that it suggested that the low resistance reading had little to no effect on the required NP setting. Specifically, I ran a Ni200 coil at NP70 and it went way over temp, and then NP60 and it was bang-on temp. At the time I thought that meant there was no low resistance effect at all, beacuse NP 60 = Ni200 0.006. But now I realise that my Ni200 is acutally 0.0045 - 0.005 so that was somewhat higher than required based on TCR alone. But still way lower than would be expected by even a 0.01Ω lowering of resistance reading.

I'll post findings on that as soon as I can.

But if your 45 is working for you, stick with it - it could be that the real TCR is 0.0035 - 0.0038 and low resistance requires NP to be raised to 45 (as I originally assumed) or it could be the TCR really is ~0.0042 and it's only requiring a very slight NP increase from there.

I will shortly be testing my Zivipf Titanium on the Dicodes to establish its TCR and then testing it on the SXK to see what setting it needs there.

I haven't done any water tests, I might at some point but at the moment I'm now re-confident in the numbers I'm getting back from the thermometer. When I tested with Resistherm at the start, the only wire I can be fairly sure of the TCR on, it was pretty bang on in the very first test. It's been the Ni200 that's thrown things out since then. My concern re temperature accuracy was that maybe probe position would lead me to get a too-low temp reading, but that is not happening even when I have the probe suspended in air right in the middle of the coil (touching nothing) - which is also how Busardo does it. And in fact with my bare wire probe I can touch the coil because it doesn't short, and that gives me a faster response time.

Apparently a good way to independently verify probe accuracy is with an ice bath - melting ice has a very specific, known temperature which can be used to verify probes. I might do that, because the UNI-T thermometer has a "temperature offset" feature I can use to record a permanent offset if necessary.

Back to testing, more findings later

 

[dems86]

For anyone who cares (and why would you really) looks like my 2380 MIGHT ship tomorrow...Ive forgotten why I wanted one almost...lol!

...so this is where everyone chips in telling me what a great device it is and worth the wait and I wont regret it...etc etc..

If you have a fetish for regulated tubes, it is THE BEST, PERIOD.

Right now in terms of features, build quality, and just the overall package, nothing comes close by a mile

THE WGU CLUB

 

[TheotherSteveS]

If you have a fetish for regulated tubes, it is THE BEST, PERIOD.

Right now in terms of features, build quality, and just the overall package, nothing comes close by a mile

THE WGU CLUB

i love you guys!! im pretty sure it will ship tomorrow as it is back in stock on greek mods! might get it by monday/tuesday!!

 

[TheBloke]

Well that was anti-climatic, the TCR of Zivipf 26G Titanium is 0.0035 - exactly as the manual says it is and we first thought it was! i worked backwards from 0.0042 / 420 and it's dead on at 350.

Graphs in a minute.

 

[tchavei]

Well that was anti-climatic, the TCR of Zivipf 26G Titanium is 0.0035 - exactly as the manual says it is and we first thought it was! i worked backwards from 0.0042 / 420 and it's dead on at 350.

Graphs in a minute.

Although I have no stakes in zivipf, I'm somehow happy it's bang on kinda makes up the dirty spools.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

Titanium TCR Validation - Zivipf 26G Titanium Grade 1 Wire, Dicodes 2380 @ 20W / 200°C (206°C actual target temp)

"Actual target temp" means the expected end target temperature from a configuration of 200°C, because the room temperature at time of test was 26°C not the 20°C the Dicodes assumes. The red line on the graph indicates 206°C.

The overshoots visible above the 206°C line (eg up to 220°C at one point, briefly) are caused by repeated pulsing on a dry coil (no air or juice flow) - the pre-heat (20w in this case) pushes it over temp before it has a chance to regulate down. It is anticipated that these will not happen on a wet coil.

 

[Madnapali]

Titanium TCR Validation - Zivipf 26G Titanium Grade 1 Wire, Dicodes 2380 @ 20W / 200°C (206°C actual target temp)

"Actual target temp" means the expected end target temperature from a configuration of 200°C, because the room temperature at time of test was 26°C not the 20°C the Dicodes assumes. The red line on the graph indicates 206°C.

The overshoots visible above the 206°C line (eg up to 220°C at one point, briefly) are caused by repeated pulsing on a dry coil (no air or juice flow) - the pre-heat (20w in this case) pushes it over temp before it has a chance to regulate down. It is anticipated that these will not happen on a wet coil.

Remember when I said I wanted to program wire presets when the Whiteout Ares OS comes out? You are going to be the one providing me with correct numbers haha. Then I just have the arduous task of locating equipment to verify everything...

 

[TheBloke]

Remember when I said I wanted to program wire presets when the Whiteout Ares OS comes out? You are going to be the one providing me with correct numbers haha. Then I just have the arduous task of locating equipment to verify everything...

Well the DNA 200 has built in support for configuring any TCR curve, allowing for more sophisticated monitoring than just a static TCR number. Not as challenging as coding it from scratch, granted

 

[druckle]

Well the DNA 200 has built in support for configuring any TCR curve, allowing for more sophisticated monitoring than just a static TCR number. Not as challenging as coding it from scratch, granted

Yes, but Evolv claims they won't supply the data to correctly create the .csv file for any wire other than the built in Ni 200. That smells like a disaster about to happen to me. I can imagine folks without a clue tinkering and creating very bad stuff.

Duane

 

[Madnapali]

Well the DNA 200 has built in support for configuring any TCR curve, allowing for more sophisticated monitoring than just a static TCR number. Not as challenging as coding it from scratch, granted

Well, what I want to do is not enter the TCR curve... just click through the menu and choose your wire. Boom, done.

Yes, but Evolv claims they won't supply the data to correctly create the .csv file for any wire other than the built in Ni 200. That smells like a disaster about to happen to me. I can imagine folks without a clue tinkering and creating very bad stuff.

Duane

They are classically bad at doing anything right on the first try... DNA40 even still has some issues and here we are with them already working on something more complicated. At least they brought us the technology.

 

[TheBloke]

Yeah we'll have to do it ourselves. This means the 200 will still lag behind the Dicodes for proper TC (Ni200 = legacy TC in my view ), because it's only possible to configure the other wires via a PC connection (anyone with a Mac is SOL immediately). Until it has on-mod TCR adjustment, or at least selectable pre-sets, it won't be as good for the vast majority of users who want Beyond-Ni200 TC.

I think, or at least hope, they will bring this in a v1.1 update. Their fancy graph/curve system is nice, but it's also just a nice-to-have. A basic TCR is more than accurate enough for Titanium, Resistherm and Stainless Steel. Even for Ni200 the curve is pretty slight in the usual vaping temperature range. The Dicodes just has a simple TCR number and it's showing to be very accurate for Ni200 in my tests, same as the other wires.

I'd far rather have a simple TCR scale, ideally with presets but not required, than a curve that can only be configured via external software. They've done it the wrong way round in my view - should have given the simple TCR adjustment first, and then added more sophisticated curve stuff later.

 

[Madnapali]

Agreed on that last bit.

As for having presets, get yourself a Whiteout Ares OS when it comes out and help me test my code .

 

[druckle]

I'd far rather have a simple TCR scale, ideally with presets but not required, than a curve that can only be configured via external software. They've done it the wrong way round in my view - should have given the simple TCR adjustment first, and then added more sophisticated curve stuff later.

I absolutely agree. I almost get the impression that Evolv is committed to screwing up. Their beta test program appears to be a last minute matter of days duration for a complex product with the potential to injure someone.

When some of the beta testers on youtube said they had the device only two days I asked how long the beta program had been going on. I've been told by one beta tester that I don't need to know how long they have had to evaluate and comment on the device and was advised if that wasn't enough knowledge for me that I should not buy the product. Another beta tester told me that Evolv would not allow that information to be released.
I'm having a hard time understanding something here.

Duane