TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[TheBloke]

What is the difference between 316 and 430?

430 has a higher TCR, around 0.0014 at vaping temps, compared to SS316 which is around 0.0009 - lower than any TCR adjusting mod can actually do, so 0.001 is the best approximation.

Therefore for 316 (and 317) a slight temperature offset will likely be required - eg setting 220°C instead of a desired 230°C.

(The above probably does not apply to the dna 200 using an imported curve; it, like other mods, won't let a single TCR below 0.001 be used, but its curve might allow lower increments - in fact now I think about it, almost certainly does.)

SS 304 was the best SS to date, until we were made aware of 430 by @balazsk and then Unkamen started stocking it. SS 410 is even better TCR-wise, but we don't yet know any (spool sized) supplier.

SS316 and 317 should still give a pretty decent TC vape, and on paper are still more accurate than Ni200 - albeit likely requiring that small offset (on TCR adjusting mods besides the DNA 200 with a proper curve setup.)

SS 304 is the most sensitive/accurate of the easily available SS alloys - TCR of 0.00105 - and 430 is more sensitive/accurate still albeit at limited availability: one known supplier, and only in 28G.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

Since I prefer 28 ga to all others, that's not a problem. Just wondering if I should grab up Unkamen's great deal or look for some 316...

 

[TheBloke]

Since I prefer 28 ga to all others, that's not a problem. Just wondering if I should grab up Unkamen's great deal or look for some 316...

Unkamen's deal is so great that I would say grab it while you can regardless.

Based on accuracy alone, 430 is clearly superior to 316.

The only question mark is the handling. It seems to lose one of 304/316/317's nice benefits, of being completely spring-less. That said, it sounds like it's no springier than Titanium, and it still has the benefit of dry burnability.

It's much less sensitive/accurate than Titanium, but is still - on paper at least - more accurate than Ni200, and so should provide a fine TC vape on most/all mods that actually can TC vape it.

But that last part is the key - you can't TC vape it on any TC mod, unlike Titanium and the NiFes.

As you were thinking of getting SS anyway you must be fine with that last point. I personally can't yet answer the question of whether the improved accuracy is worth the apparent slight decrease in usability. I suppose arguably it might not be, given that even SS 316 should be accurate enough, especially on a DNA 200.

But as I say, it's so cheap.. if in doubt, just get both?

@Landman how is the 430 for malleability? I suppose that goes hand in hand with the springiness - with this SS 304 for example I can just bend it wherever I want it and it holds its shape. But springy wire by definition will resist that.

 

[TheBloke]

I'll be doing some absolute accuracy tests with 316 and 317 and 304, as well as 430 when I get it, in the coming days/weeks. We know now that on-paper at least, it should be fine, though likely with an offset for 316/317 except on the DNA 200.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

Unkamen's deal is so great that I would say grab it while you can regardless.

Based on accuracy alone, 430 is clearly superior to 316.

The only question mark is the handling. It seems to lose one of 304/316/317's nice benefits, of being completely spring-less. That said, it sounds like it's no springier than Titanium, and it still has the benefit of dry burnability.

It's much less sensitive/accurate than Titanium, but is still - on paper at least - more accurate than Ni200, and so should provide a fine TC vape on most/all mods that actually can TC vape it.

But that last part is the key - you can't TC vape it on any TC mod, unlike Titanium and the NiFes.

As you were thinking of getting SS anyway you must be fine with that last point. I personally can't yet answer the question of whether the improved accuracy is worth the apparent slight decrease in usability. I suppose arguably it might not be, given that even SS 316 should be accurate enough, especially on a DNA 200.

But as I say, it's so cheap.. if in doubt, just get both?

@Landman how is the 430 for malleability? I suppose that goes hand in hand with the springiness - with this SS 304 for example I can just bend it wherever I want it and it holds its shape. But springy wire by definition will resist that.

I won one of the Smok XCUBE II mods, and it has, adjustable TCR and a SS mode, so, yeah...

 

[jazzvaper]

I'll be doing some absolute accuracy tests with 316 and 317 and 304, as well as 430 when I get it, in the coming days/weeks. We know now that on-paper at least, it should be fine, though likely with an offset for 316/317 except on the DNA 200.

Quoting you 2nd post (coz it's shorter [emoji13]) but the question refers to both...

As I believe you know I am now doing contact coils with SS that, it would seem, eliminates the "springiness" argument. Though, I do plan to check on "spaced" coil performance...but only for the sake of science.

Your thoughts?

Oh, I am ordering the 430 RIGHT NOW.

 

[TheBloke]

I won one of the Smok XCUBE II mods, and it has, adjustable TCR and a SS mode, so, yeah...

Nice! You'll need offsets on it most likely, I do at least on mine with Titanium. Always under-heats (eg I set to 250-260°C a coil I'd set to 230-240°C on other mods.) Haven't tried the SS mode yet - it failed miserably with SS before the update (on FW 1.08), trying to use it with temp offsets and TCR set to lowest then-possible 0.0015, but hopefully they've resolved that now.

 

[Landman]

Could it be "new build syndrome" that makes it the 430 "different". I notice on almost every rewicking/recoiling that things taste a little different for a short while. I have a theory but it's ummmmmm unproven. Nevertheless the difference is always there and seems to go away after a tank or so. Let us know what happens after a couple days vaping with the new 430.

Duane

Yeah, it's possible. But, I'm thinking it was just the Ti being twisted. Put a twisted SS in a third ST+ and also, I'll admit, I didn't do as detailed of a job for the wick on the single wire (dinner was almost ready!) as I just did on this twisted, but it's hitting just about like the Ti now - very nice flavor. I think it just wasn't as dense of a flavor.

If the Ti 'taste' was 100%, the single was maybe 80% at best, and the twisted SS is like 90-95%. Whether it's just the newness or an actual taste difference, I really believe at the moment, I can still tell a very slight difference. But with the vapor density being on the same level, it's close enough. Maybe this is the new taste that will work it's way out. I think where something like this SS will really shine is a dual coil deck that is limited on space to where having contact coils are very beneficial, build-wise.

Mean to say earlier, the current SS twisted is contact coiled. I did have a few hot spots that I had to pulse out, but it's working fine now.

 

[TheBloke]

Quoting you 2nd post (coz it's shorter [emoji13]) but the question refers to both...

As I believe you know I am now doing contact coils with SS that, it would seem, eliminates the "springiness" argument. Though, I do plan to check on "spaced" coil performance...but only for the sake of science.

Why would it? In fact, if anything, doesn't that make it worse?

When I refer to springiness I refer to wrapping wire around a rod of let's say 3.0mm, either by hand or - as I usually do - with a Kuro coiler or similar.

A non-springy wire, like this SS 304, will stay exactly where you leave it after you let go, and when you measure the coil it will be the diameter of the rod.

A springy wire, like Titanium and Landman says also the 430, will spring back a little - you need to add a half or quarter extra wrap to leave the leg where you wanted to leave it. And more importantly, measuring the resulting coil will be X% wider than the rod, no matter how tight you pull it around that rod. A typical value with Titanium is a 3.0mm rod resulting in a 3.25 - 3.3mm coil.

That could theoretically make contact a bit harder, because the spring might make it more likely that the coil won't stay tightly coiled together as you intended.

That said, I have no problem making contact coils of Titanium - just they're 8-10% wider than the rod I used.

So I could see wanting contact coils being no worse with springy wire. I can't see it being better/not a relevant issue?

 

[TheBloke]

Anyway, I'm off to bed now and hopefully de-lurgify and be better tomorrow.

Also, tomorrow a big day for Crazy - will they magically find some NiFe down the back of the sofa? Will they claim this wire really is NiFe? Will they reply at all? Do I care any more?

 

[jazzvaper]

Why would it? In fact, if anything, doesn't that make it worse?

When I refer to springiness I refer to wrapping wire around a rod of let's say 3.0mm, either by hand or - as I usually do - with a Kuro coiler or similar.

A non-springy wire, like this SS 304, will stay exactly where you leave it after you let go, and when you measure the coil it will be the diameter of the rod.

A springy wire, like Titanium and Landman says also the 430, will spring back a little - you need to add a half or quarter extra wrap to leave the leg where you wanted to leave it. And more importantly, measuring the resulting coil will be X% wider than the rod, no matter how tight you pull it around that rod. A typical value with Titanium is a 3.0mm rod resulting in a 3.25 - 3.3mm coil.

That could theoretically make contact a bit harder, because the spring might make it more likely that the coil won't stay tightly coiled together as you intended.

That said, I have no problem making contact coils of Titanium - just they're 8-10% wider than the rod I used.

So I could see wanting contact coils being no worse with springy wire. I can't see it being better/not a relevant issue?

That was confusing. I think we are saying the same thing; irrelevant/doesn't matter.

Get your rest. Feel better. Mañana...

 

[dwcraig1]

I received my "no grade" FT $10 for 50 meters Ti today. Didn't have much time to fool with it because my son broke his I phone screen.
$1053 (Apple Care and case, tax,ect). later for an unlocked 6 plus (more than 3 Opus') What I do know about the wire is it's different than grade 1. I'm having to use SSV's CSV to get it to appear working correctly, interesting. More tomorrow, time to go to work.
BTW, I tried to get him to get a Samsung.

 

[gorman]

From everything I've read so far on this thread, and given the latest findings, I feel that SS might be the best option. With the resistances we find workable it has sufficient precision and no weak point, as far as I understand (no toxic compounds developing, no allergies, easily workable, dryburnable)... am I missing something?

Some days ago @TheBloke wrote:

Stainless Steel has the following major disadvantage compared to all other wires mentioned:

1. It has the lowest TCR, right at the low end of current TC technology.
   1. Therefore it requires a TC mod with TCR adjustment
   2. And even with such a mod, it can only be accurate to around the nearest 20-30°C, compared to 5°C on other wires.
   3. This doesn't mean it gives a poor TC vape, it just means you might end up setting a different temperature than you expect; maybe 215°C instead of 225°C.

Considering that we've (you've, actually...) found out that the problem with accuracy had been overblown by a mistake by Dicodes... isn't SS the clear way to go for mods with workable TCR?

 

[TheBloke]

That was confusing. I think we are saying the same thing; irrelevant/doesn't matter.

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying springiness does matter, regardless of what type of coils you make.

Your original statement was that using contact coils "eliminates the springiness argument". I don't see how it eliminates it. The springiness argument applies in exactly the same way as it does for spaced coils: Non springy wire allows you to roll the exact diameter you want. Springy wire does not, it will expand a few % beyond the size of the coiling rod. With springy wire, if you want to guarantee a diameter, you need a rod slightly smaller than that diameter.

Maybe you meant something different? But in a nutshell, I can't see how spaced vs contact has any bearing on the springiness question at all.

 

[f1vefour]

SS does have nickel so there could still be folks with allergies to the metal. Much better option than ni200, Ti is probably a bit better than SS for TC accuracy but you can't dry burn and it's springy.

 

[jazzvaper]

Maybe you meant something different? But in a nutshell, I can't see how spaced vs contact has any bearing on the springiness question at all.

For me, unless I can be persuaded otherwise, a 2.5 mm coil that is X% larger OD, say 2.5 mm + 25%, is trivial...

Now we are clear, I think. [emoji108]

 

[TheBloke]

For me, unless I can be persuaded otherwise, a 2.5 mm coil that is X% larger OD, say 2.5 mm + 25%, is trivial...

Now we are clear, I think. [emoji108]

Yeah, I'm not saying it has to be an important factor Just that it is a factor, and it's irrespective of the coil type. Actually it's never as bad as 25% - 10% tops with Titanium, less with other materials.

It does then effect further coil adjustments - tweaking, positioning, etc. But it's never a huge deal to be sure. And can be avoided completely if one takes takes the time to pre-torch/pulse the wire.

 

[gorman]

If I understand things correctly, the V4A and V2A stainless steel wires from Zivipf are respectively 304 and 316 SS, with 10% and 12% Nickel respectively... isn't the alloy stable enough not to leak Nickel in vapor, considering the low percentage (still over five times less than NiFe52, if I'm not mistaken)?

 

[jazzvaper]

If I understand things correctly, the V4A and V2A stainless steel wires from Zivipf are respectively 304 and 316 SS, with 10% and 12% Nickel respectively... isn't the alloy stable enough not to leak Nickel in vapor, considering the low percentage (still over five times less than NiFe52, if I'm not mistaken)?

From where does this info come? A link if you have one...talking bout the percent of Nickel.

OT: I discovered the cause of eScribe not reading realtime Temp on my Ni 200 Kayfun 4. It was the atty setup. Poked and prodded till I got it right. eScribe puts an END to complaints about wonky K4 TC. Fix the mod and you simultaneously fix your mind. (I mean complaint. [emoji111]️)

 

[TheBloke]

From everything I've read so far on this thread, and given the latest findings, I feel that SS might be the best option. With the resistances we find workable it has sufficient precision and no weak point, as far as I understand (no toxic compounds developing, no allergies, easily workable, dryburnable)... am I missing something?

Some days ago @TheBloke wrote:


Considering that we've (you've, actually...) found out that the problem with accuracy had been overblown by a mistake by Dicodes... isn't SS the clear way to go for mods with workable TCR?

Yes this may well be the case.

SS is currently limited by its reliance on mods with full TCR adjustment. How much that matters depends on the individual. I now have a hell of a lot of TC mods, and the proportion of SS-supporting mods is growing, but won't ever be 100% unless/until I retire some mods. So I do personally have a preference for a wire that can be vaped on any TC mod.

But for the moment let's take the case of someone who has 100% mods with TCR adjustment.

Yes, in theory, SS is certainly a top contender. It is not as absolutely accurate/sensitive as the NiFes, and quite a bit less so than Titanium. That probably doesn't matter. On paper, it appears more accurate than Ni200, which until three months ago or even less, most of us felt was pretty accurate.

I really need to do some comparative tests, which I will very soon. I think some of my reticence over SS has come from a) the mistaken belief it was less ultimately accurate than Ni200, based on sources such as Dicodes, b) my own real-life experiences with the first-gen SXK mods which aren't the most accurate and certainly not the most smooth.

Now as for SS vs NiFe - well, personally I don't have allergies to nickel, and I think this describes the majority of people, and I don't include toxic compounds in discussion because to my mind, we don't know enough about any material to include them. So I consider them all equally as safe/equally unsafe: because I have no solid facts to dispute that. If such facts start coming out, then that might change things.

Nor do we even know whether 52% Nickel for example is enough to trigger sensitivities; all we know at this stage is that 99.6% definitely is enough. Then, we don't know whether 52% might but 8% (in most Stainless') might not. Maybe either is just as bad. Maybe neither matters in real situations. Maybe even 70% is OK (perhaps the Iron prevents the Nickel leaking out, who knows)

We'll be able to test that fairly soon, as we have a willing test subject with mild sensitivities that flare up with Ni200.

Now there's handling: we do know that SS 304 handles like a dream. Best wire to coil I've had, hands down (well maybe Kanthal was as nice, it's been so long I forget! ) The Resistherm NiFe30 and Kanthal NiFethal 70 I've tried was not quite as nice - more springy. But it was also a much thinner wire. Maybe it might be a bit better at 26G, though I suppose it's going to be fairly similar. Stealth's NiFe70 is soft annealed, that might be different again. We have no idea what the NiFe52 will feel like.

Then there's SS 430 - more accurate, no nickel, but seemingly at the cost of some of the usability benefits. And currently only available in 28G and in the US.

Then there's the fact that NiFe, while dryburnable, shouldn't - according to spec- be taken above 600°C where SS can go up to 900°C. Does that matter?

I'm rambling. Short answer: I don't know. I don't yet know whether the on-paper low-end accuracy/sensitivity of SS is a real-world factor, nor whether this will vary between mods (I do think it matters to the first gen SXKs for example.)

I don't know whether the much higher accuracy of NiFe52 is a real-world benefit. I don't know how NiFethal 70 will handle in thicker gauages, I don't know how NiFe52 and Stealth NiFe70 will handle in any gauge.

So I'm going to need to take a rain check on this question. In the next two weeks I will have in my hands: Stealth NiFe70; Unkamen SS 430; Kanthal NiFe52; Kanthal NiFe70 in thicker gauges; maybe Crazy NiFe70 if it did turn out to be a mistake; maybe the mystery US NiFe52; god knows what other wires still to be heard of.

What I do know, right now, is that SS 304 at 26G vaped on the Apollo Reliant 60W with TCR 13 is giving a nice, subjectively accurate, no-dry-hit, temperature controlled vape, and was lovely to coil And I will be probing the SS 304 on the Apollo as my first priority.

I know you have a TCR-adjusting mod, so I can definitely recommend you get, right now, some SS 304 (V2A) in your preferred thickness. Vape on that and enjoy, while I try and figure out if NiFe is an upgrade for you, or anyone