The FDA and hardware (questions)

[skoony]

Um .......... you do know you can make your own bath products and
sell pg/vg from DIY stores and vg is used for skin care and FDA approved right ?

PG/VG will be treated the same as OTC medications that require an ID to purchase with the necessary
stipulations applying.

Some have Argued with Policy Makers that if I take a Smoker and I hold in One Hand a pack of Cigarettes and in the Other an e-Cigarette and then tell them. "It is going to cost you the Exact Same. But the e-Cigarette is Clearly Safer.", that smokers will move towards e-Cigarettes. State and the Fed will get their Tax Monies. And Public Health will have been Improved.

But by Imposing Excessive Taxes and or Unreasonable Restrictions, there will be Less Public Health Improvement.

A same price side by side comparison would result in a win for tobacco. The safer benefit is not enough incentive.
For some maybe. Most will opt for the real deal instead of a lame throw away cigalike. Again I am not talking
about us here on the forums. I am referring to the vast majority of vapers and smokers out there in the real world.

Regards
Mike

 

[zoiDman]

The point being missed here is that they would need something to tax. The deeming regs would effectively remove all vaping options other than what was available before the effective deeming date, and that includes the cigalikes like Vuse and Blu that hit the market since 2007. The taxation issue is secondary and not under the FDA purview for deeming. Any taxes on vaping products are being proposed/implemented because of the perceived equivalence to smoking tobacco.

I think is a Big Part of why it is taking the FDA so Long to get a Rule Set done.

Because if it is To Restrictive and Cost Prohibitive, then as you mention, there will be Nothing to Tax. But if it is Not Restive enough, then those who they want to Reap the Profits will not get the Lion's Share.

And the Tragedy is that it allows States to Twist in the Wind with No Guidance. So we see CRAZY proposed Legislation on State Levels.

 

[zoiDman]

...


A same price side by side comparison would result in a win for tobacco. The safer benefit is not enough incentive.
For some maybe. Most will opt for the real deal instead of a lame through away cigalike. Again I am not talking
about us here on the forums. I am referring to the vast majority of vapers and smokers out there in the real world.

Regards
Mike

I think what you are Not Considering is that Smokers are kinda a Revolving Door.

That at any given Time, there are a Significant Percentage that want to Quit, but Can't. This is the Segment that e-Cigarettes Apply to.

 

[VNeil]

I fixed that for you.

BTW - Why would anyone want to Kill e-Cigarettes?

You Can't Tax Something that Isn't being Sold Legally.

They may want to kill it off because they may not be able to otherwise stop it. You can vape with pure VG. It may or may not be possible to apply "intended use" such that a $6 liter of VG is taxed at $1000. People are very adaptive. People (outside the vaping subculture here) will learn that they can either vape "eJuice" taxed at $1000/liter, or buy a liter of VG at Walmart for $10 or so.

As people adapt to these nonexistent barriers of entry into untaxed vaping, the gov't will create increasingly absurd restrictions to try to stop these holes in the tax scheme. It's hard to imagine how far that will go.

It would be far easier to maintain the cig tax revenue stream.

Here is an experiment in the interests of science...

Chicago will institute a roughly $1/ml tax on eJuice on Jan 1. On Jan 2, set up a storefront, or a sidewalk vending cart, or whatever, advertising 100% VG eJuice, tax free.

See how long it takes for the city of Chicago to make VG that you can buy at Walmart illegal to trade. Perhaps dependent on "intent"? Then the only question is... can they get away with it? Wouldn't it be easier, in the long run, to stamp out vaping and keep the cig tax revenue in place?

(yea, I know, people can drive outside the city or outside the county to avoid the cig tax. But if it involves only a trip to Walmart or the local drug store or food store, that makes it way too convenient)

For all the young never smokers taking up vaping, it isn't the nic they want, it's the Clouds Bro. Just like many of us did not start smoking specifically as a nic deliver vehicle. We wanted our Clouds Bro. In fact, most of us put up with the nic until it became enjoyable in itself, more as an accident of smoking than intent. Just to point out that the nic is not as critical a component as people make it out to be. It is important to many, but not nearly all.

I'm trying to point out that, at a very fundamental level, taxing vaping comes down to putting a $1000 tax on a $6 bottle of VG. It is not tenable. It may take a few years of evolution for the whole sordid thing to play out but not a lifetime or anywhere near it.

 

[440BB]

And the Tragedy is that it allows States to Twist in the Wind with No Guidance. So we see CRAZY proposed Legislation on State Levels.

Letting local and state taxes and bans develop while the press is fed and passing on negative perceptions seems to be a great strategy to mimimize resistance to the eventual federal rules. This is in many ways identical to the tactics which led to Prohibition. By the time it became law, the majority who opposed it were outside the loop of political pressure.

 

[BreSha6869]

PG/VG will be treated the same as OTC medications that require an ID to purchase with the necessary
stipulations applying.


A same price side by side comparison would result in a win for tobacco. The safer benefit is not enough incentive.
For some maybe. Most will opt for the real deal instead of a lame through away cigalike. Again I am not talking
about us here on the forums. I am referring to the vast majority of vapers and smokers out there in the real world.

Regards
Mike

The "real world" smokers/potential future vapers (not the ECG forumites or vapers that buy from B&Ms/online and have a clue) are definately going to get boned. I tried one of those gas station eCigs a few years ago and tossed it after a few drags. Not a chance that would help me quit smoking.

If everything was shut down today, I would be good for 15-20 years with what I currently have. We are not the ones that will think the potentially regulated version of vaping is crap and go back to smokes. That is sad.

 

[VNeil]

Um .......... you do know you can make your own bath products and
sell pg/vg from DIY stores and vg is used for skin care and FDA approved right ?

As I just said in my previous post... after Jan 1 go into the city of Chicago and sell 100% VG eJuice and see what happens to you. No one has fully thought this out. I'm not sure if the city of Chicago has either, but by the end of January they should have that part well understood.

 

[Douggro]

I think is a Big Part of why it is taking the FDA so Long to get a Rule Set done.

Because if it is To Restrictive and Cost Prohibitive, then as you mention, there will be Nothing to Tax. But if it is Not Restive enough, then those who they want to Reap the Profits will not get the Lion's Share.

And the Tragedy is that it allows States to Twist in the Wind with No Guidance. So we see CRAZY proposed Legislation on State Levels.

Again, this is spelled out in the CASAA report, where it suggests the (likely) scenario where companies with enough resources ($$$) will get product through FDA approval (eventually) and that's what will get taxed. The FDA is playing the equivalent of The Long Con with this. Ban, several years of vetting applications and then limited number of products available.

Then there's the fact that the proposed deeming is also being applied to true tobacco products as well. It's the grease to the wheels of getting it passed, because tobacco is evil and no one wants that to be unregulated by the FDA…

 

[BreSha6869]

They may want to kill it off because they may not be able to otherwise stop it. You can vape with pure VG. It may or may not be possible to apply "intended use" such that a $6 liter of VG is taxed at $1000. People are very adaptive. People (outside the vaping subculture here) will learn that they can either vape "eJuice" taxed at $1000/liter, or buy a liter of VG at Walmart for $10 or so.

As people adapt to these nonexistent barriers of entry into untaxed vaping, the gov't will create increasingly absurd restrictions to try to stop these holes in the tax scheme. It's hard to imagine how far that will go.

It would be far easier to maintain the cig tax revenue stream.

Here is an experiment in the interests of science...

Chicago will institute a roughly $1/ml tax on eJuice on Jan 1. On Jan 2, set up a storefront, or a sidewalk vending cart, or whatever, advertising 100% VG eJuice, tax free.

See how long it takes for the city of Chicago to make VG that you can buy at Walmart illegal to trade. Perhaps dependent on "intent"? Then the only question is... can they get away with it? Wouldn't it be easier, in the long run, to stamp out vaping and keep the cig tax revenue in place?

(yea, I know, people can drive outside the city or outside the county to avoid the cig tax. But if it involves only a trip to Walmart or the local drug store or food store, that makes it way too convenient)

For all the young never smokers taking up vaping, it isn't the nic they want, it's the Clouds Bro. Just like many of us did not start smoking specifically as a nic deliver vehicle. We wanted our Clouds Bro. In fact, most of us put up with the nic until it became enjoyable in itself, more as an accident of smoking than intent. Just to point out that the nic is not as critical a component as people make it out to be. It is important to many, but not nearly all.

I'm trying to point out that, at a very fundamental level, taxing vaping comes down to putting a $1000 tax on a $6 bottle of VG. It is not tenable. It may take a few years of evolution for the whole sordid thing to play out but not a lifetime or anywhere near it.

I can't see that though. VG is used in making essential oils, sold over the counter for dry skin and is even in things like liquid Tylenol and Advil for kids.

I honestly don't think any govt is smart enough to tax VG that is sold at Walmart or flavouring agents sold at the Bulk Barn and any other bakery supply store.

 

[zoiDman]

They may want to kill it off because they may not be able to otherwise stop it. You can vape with pure VG. It may or may not be possible to apply "intended use" such that a $6 liter of VG is taxed at $1000. People are very adaptive. People (outside the vaping subculture here) will learn that they can either vape "eJuice" taxed at $1000/liter, or buy a liter of VG at Walmart for $10 or so.

As people adapt to these nonexistent barriers of entry into untaxed vaping, the gov't will create increasingly absurd restrictions to try to stop these holes in the tax scheme. It's hard to imagine how far that will go.

It would be far easier to maintain the cig tax revenue stream.

Here is an experiment in the interests of science...

Chicago will institute a roughly $1/ml tax on eJuice on Jan 1. On Jan 2, set up a storefront, or a sidewalk vending cart, or whatever, advertising 100% VG eJuice, tax free.

See how long it takes for the city of Chicago to make VG that you can buy at Walmart illegal to trade. Perhaps dependent on "intent"? Then the only question is... can they get away with it? Wouldn't it be easier, in the long run, to stamp out vaping and keep the cig tax revenue in place?

(yea, I know, people can drive outside the city or outside the county to avoid the cig tax. But if it involves only a trip to Walmart or the local drug store or food store, that makes it way too convenient)

For all the young never smokers taking up vaping, it isn't the nic they want, it's the Clouds Bro. Just like many of us did not start smoking specifically as a nic deliver vehicle. We wanted our Clouds Bro. In fact, most of us put up with the nic until it became enjoyable in itself, more as an accident of smoking than intent. Just to point out that the nic is not as critical a component as people make it out to be. It is important to many, but not nearly all.

I'm trying to point out that, at a very fundamental level, taxing vaping comes down to putting a $1000 tax on a $6 bottle of VG. It is not tenable. It may take a few years of evolution for the whole sordid thing to play out but not a lifetime or anywhere near it.

Your Chicago Example is not a very good One. Because Chicago is Misguided to the Point of Recklessness.

How does a City Tax that is Off the Charts accomplish Anything when all a consumer needs to do is Drive outside the City Limits to obtain their e-Liquids.

Extreme Taxation only promotes a Black Market. And Invites Legal Challenges.

 

[sparkky1]

 

[440BB]

Then there's the fact that the proposed deeming is also being applied to true tobacco products as well.

Good thing most cigarettes were already on the market by 2/15/2007. What a lucky break.

 

[zoiDman]

Again, this is spelled out in the CASAA report, where it suggests the (likely) scenario where companies with enough resources ($$$) will get product through FDA approval (eventually) and that's what will get taxed. The FDA is playing the equivalent of The Long Con with this. Ban, several years of vetting applications and then limited number of products available.

Then there's the fact that the proposed deeming is also being applied to true tobacco products as well. It's the grease to the wheels of getting it passed, because tobacco is evil and no one wants that to be unregulated by the FDA…

Not saying that the FDA is Not going to make sweeping changes. And I'm not saying that things are not going to be Very Bad as compared to Today's Market.

Just saying that there is a Goose who can Lay Golden (Tax) Eggs out there. And it would be Foolish for Anyone to chop off It's Head.

 

[BreSha6869]

As I just said in my previous post... after Jan 1 go into the city of Chicago and sell 100% VG eJuice and see what happens to you. No one has fully thought this out. I'm not sure if the city of Chicago has either, but by the end of January they should have that part well understood.

That will be interesting.

It is illegal to import nic into Canada but almost every B&M sells OHW juices that is made in California. I haven't bothered to ask, but I am assuming that the nic is added to Milk Man, Muffin Man and the others in Canada.

 

[Douggro]

I can't see that though. VG is used in making essential oils, sold over the counter for dry skin and is even in things like liquid Tylenol and Advil for kids.

I honestly don't think any govt is smart enough to tax VG that is sold at Walmart or flavouring agents sold at the Bulk Barn and any other bakery supply store.

With you on this. There are so many other markets that base products are used in that taxation becomes a nightmare to implement, other than in finished product directly made and sold intended for vaping.

 

[Douggro]

Good thing most cigarettes were already on the market by 2/15/2007. What a lucky break.

Well, yeah, there's that..
The cig market has been relatively static since the TCA restrictions went into effect. Even BT has had difficulties getting new brands through the Substantive Equivalence loophole.

 

[BreSha6869]

With you on this. There are so many other markets that base products are used in that taxation becomes a nightmare to implement, other than in finished product directly made and sold intended for vaping.

Agree, not saying we are geniuses on ECF but most soccer moms and business men that vape are not going to buy VG at Walmart, order flavours and nic online and mix their own juice.

The DIY market will be tiny no matter what laws are implented. IMO anyways...

 

[zoiDman]

Good thing most cigarettes were already on the market by 2/15/2007. What a lucky break.

I think what people Don't think about much is the FSPTCA was Not Passed because of e-Cigarettes.

The Timing of the emergence of e-Cigarettes was either Inedible Bad, or Incredibly Good (depending on how you look at it).

And it seems like we are Stuck with the FDA having to "Fit" e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids into a Law that Wasn't really written to include them.

 

[WillyZee]

all the VG at all the Walmarts is not going to mean anything if nicotine base gets choked from the market.

mind you, the young, hipster, cloud chasing, vape tricksters will still be chucking clouds ... t's the folks who used vaping to replace smoking that will be left without a suitable vape.

 

[Douggro]

I think what people Don't think about much is the FSPTCA was Not Passed because of e-Cigarettes.

The Timing of the emergence of e-Cigarettes was either Inedible Bad, or Incredibly Good (depending on how you look at it).

And it seems like we are Stuck with the FDA having to "Fit" e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids into a Law that Wasn't really written to include them.

No, but the FSPTCA is the umbrella that e-cigs are being pushed under. Guilt by association, rather than seeing vaping liquids as a separate entity.