The FDA and hardware (questions)

[skoony]

I just Don't Understand how you can make Statements like that? This Board is Full of People who switched for the Health Aspects.

Sure, people like to Save Money. But what good is Money if you Don't have your Health?

There many here that have switched for health reasons. Just as many for other reasons.
Unless your an extremely health conscious person or getting on in age when health reasons
are starting to be a major concern most likely because your starting to have them health
is not a strong enough reason in general. In a head to head equal cost match up tobacco
would win. Look at the trends in beer consumption. Its the real deal or nothing. If health
was the big deal none of us would have smoked.
Regards
Mike

 

[sparkky1]

I'm Not Endorsing or Challenging anything that CASAA has said or done.

But I think there comes a Point when a Reasonable Person must Admit that something is Going to Happen. And e-liquids that contain Nicotine being Legally Deemed as a "tobacco Product" I think is a good Example of this.

Exactly, when you have an NRT that really works well (better than anything else on the market) from the smoking transition, you can't call it an NRT anymore .....................

 

[zoiDman]

I don't think it's that simple for most people. It might be for some. Think back to when you were smoking though, how many excuses would you make as to why it was too hard to quit. If the choice is between smoking and an equally expensive but less satisfying, more complicated experience, which would you have chosen?

Some will choose health, others won't. It took advancement and an abundance of options to get where vaping is today. Setting the clock back to the old times will not provide a viable option for most.

I think that if a Person continues to Smoke, that Later than Sooner there will become a Point where they see that Smoking is Effecting their Health.

Probably won't happen often to a New Smoker. Or someone who has Only Smoked for a Few Years. But as the Years go by, the percentage of People who see their Health effected Increases. They want to Quit. But they Can't.

These are the People who will be Most Effected by the Coming Regulations.

 

[Lessifer]

I think that if a Person continues to Smoke, that Later than Sooner there will become a Point where they see that Smoking is Effecting their Health.

Probably won't happen often to a New Smoker. Or someone who has Only Smoked for a Few Years. But as the Years go by, the percentage of People who see their Health effected Increases. They want to Quit. But they Can't.

These are the People who will be Most Effected by the Coming Regulations.

I agree, they will be the most effected, and they won't even know it. I'm just not sure how many of them will still make the switch if they are presented with a cigalike in the choice of menthol or tobacco, one nicotine strength, that costs them as much or more as their smoking habit. Especially when you consider that the media and health organizations have now been bombarding them for years with the "fact" that there is no real health benefit to switching, in fact, e-cigs could be worse!

 

[zoiDman]

Exactly, when you have an NRT that really works well (better than anything else on the market) from the smoking transition, you can't call it an NRT anymore .....................

Like I said, I'm not going to Defend or Oppose CASAA on their Choice of Wording.

I will say this though, If someone sells a Product and makes the Claim that it will Grow Hair, I think they should be Able to Support thier Claim.

I would Rather see e-Cigarette Use be consider the Recreation Use of Nicotine. Then to have to Comply with the Requirements of a Product in a Regulated Market where the Seller would like to make a Claim of Performance.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree, they will be the most effected, and they won't even know it. I'm just not sure how many of them will still make the switch if they are presented with a cigalike in the choice of menthol or tobacco, one nicotine strength, that costs them as much or more as their smoking habit. Especially when you consider that the media and health organizations have now been bombarding them for years with the "fact" that there is no real health benefit to switching, in fact, e-cigs could be worse!

Very True.

 

[sparkky1]

Like I said, I'm not going to Defend or Oppose CASAA on their Choice of Wording.

I will say this though, If someone sells a Product and makes the Claim that it will Grow Hair, I think they should be Able to Support thier Claim.

I would Rather see e-Cigarette Use be consider the Recreation Use of Nicotine. Then to have to Comply with the Requirements of a Product in a Regulated Market where the Seller would like to make a Claim of Performance.

Well that's BT hard at work bringing BV down to their level of vape gear performance (mister) or should I say dual user gear, when they don't satisfy grab a stinky and enjoy your lack luster stamina / senses and boat loads of insurance money for cancer (BP) treatments as well, then back to your 4.8% nicotine by weight non satisfying vape.
FDA - federal deposit administration............................. where are the whistle blowers when you need them, I suppose their getting paid off too ...........

 

[Hans Wermhat]

BP has been churning out "smoking cessation" products for 20+ years now that were never intended to work. The government has been waging a propaganda "war on smoking" for generations, all the while taking money from those who profit most from it. All this has been in an attempt to placate the sheeple and lull them into believing that the government cares and wants us to quit smoking so we can live longer and be healthier. The sad fact is that it's not true. They don't want folks to quit smoking. Lots of good points here about BT, BP, medical industry, and tax dollars being lost, but that's not the biggest threat from vaping. Not only does smoking generate 100's of BILLIONS of dollars a year in various revenues, but above all else it's population control. Smoking is the single biggest killer in America. If they really cared, they would have banned tobacco itself 50 years ago. Some bean counter somewhere along the way realized that we all pay Social Security and Medicare taxes and that they are one of the single biggest sources of income for the federal government. It's the one part of your income taxes that is completely exempt from refund. The government has been robbing from that well since it was first dug, and they are always looking for new ways to fill their bucket from it. If a person smokes from their teens until it kills them, most will never live long enough to make a dent in the coffers by drawing SSI or Medicare benefits. They take the money from us without our consent and spend it as they please, and if we don't live long enough to collect it, they never have to give it back. And if they can collect billions more each year in taxes from the thing that is killing us off before they have to support us with the money we gave them to do so, so much the better for them. Vaping doesn't just threaten the money they make in sales and taxes legally, but it threatens the money they steal behind closed doors as well. It's one of the biggest single threats to the government and I honestly can't believe they have waited 10 years to do anything about it. It should have been obvious to them years ago that their anti-vaping propaganda wasn't working and we are smarter tan they give us credit for. I guess they underestimated it and us and now they are paying catch-up with this blanket legislation that is obviously meant to completely kill vaping outright.

 

[Rossum]

BP has been churning out "smoking cessation" products for 20+ years now that were never intended to work. The government has been waging a propaganda "war on smoking" for generations, all the while taking money from those who profit most from it. All this has been in an attempt to placate the sheeple and lull them into believing that the government cares and wants us to quit smoking so we can live longer and be healthier. The sad fact is that it's not true. They don't want folks to quit smoking. Lots of good points here about BT, BP, medical industry, and tax dollars being lost, but that's not the biggest threat from vaping. Not only does smoking generate 100's of BILLIONS of dollars a year in various revenues, but above all else it's population control. Smoking is the single biggest killer in America. If they really cared, they would have banned tobacco itself 50 years ago. Some bean counter somewhere along the way realized that we all pay Social Security and Medicare taxes and that they are one of the single biggest sources of income for the federal government. It's the one part of your income taxes that is completely exempt from refund. The government has been robbing from that well since it was first dug, and they are always looking for new ways to fill their bucket from it. If a person smokes from their teens until it kills them, most will never live long enough to make a dent in the coffers by drawing SSI or Medicare benefits. They take the money from us without our consent and spend it as they please, and if we don't live long enough to collect it, they never have to give it back. And if they can collect billions more each year in taxes from the thing that is killing us off before they have to support us with the money we gave them to do so, so much the better for them. Vaping doesn't just threaten the money they make in sales and taxes legally, but it threatens the money they steal behind closed doors as well. It's one of the biggest single threats to the government and I honestly can't believe they have waited 10 years to do anything about it. It should have been obvious to them years ago that their anti-vaping propaganda wasn't working and we are smarter tan they give us credit for. I guess they underestimated it and us and now they are paying catch-up with this blanket legislation that is obviously meant to completely kill vaping outright.

50 years ago, half the adult population smoked and trying to ban tobacco would have been political suicide.

As for the rest, yeah, it would be far better for the goobermint's finances if more people died in their 60s rather than hanging around into their 70s or even longer. In another decade or two, they're going to have a huge problem because the promises they made in the form of Social Security and especially Medicare cannot be kept, in part because so many people already live longer than they were expected to when those promises were made, and if the remaining 20% who still smoke were to quit, it would only make the entire situation even more untenable for them.

 

[AndriaD]

50 years ago, half the adult population smoked and trying to ban tobacco would have been political suicide.

As for the rest, yeah, it would be far better for the goobermint's finances if more people died in their 60s rather than hanging around into their 70s or even longer. In another decade or two, they're going to have a huge problem because the promises they made in the form of Social Security and especially Medicare cannot be kept, in part because so many people already live longer than they were expected to when those promises were made, and if the remaining 20% who still smoke were to quit, it would only make the entire situation even more untenable for them.

I'm sure all that is true, but *purposely* trying to make people die before it's really "their time" is called "murder", and I don't think America will stand for it. They might get away with their silliness for a while, but I firmly believe that since the truth and the science is on our side, they will ultimately be FORCED to reconcile with it.

Andria

 

[Hans Wermhat]

In another decade or two, they're going to have a huge problem because the promises they made in the form of Social Security and especially Medicare cannot be kept

That problem is already here. The "baby boomers" are all retired/retiring now and the gooberment has spent the last 50 years expanding welfare and bureaucracy with their SSI money. Last I heard there is over $120 trillion a year going out in SSI and welfare payments now and it's hidden in the books to keep the country's credit rating up so we can continue to borrow money from China to expand the bureaucracy further and put more people on welfare.

*purposely* trying to make people die before it's really "their time" is called "murder", and I don't think America will stand for it.

People have been standing by watching it happen for 3 or 4 generations now. Where was the outrage when it came out that BT was putting carcinogenic additives in cigs to make them more addictive and harder to put down? Now that this is common knowledge, why is the FDA not forcing them to stop adding them to make it easier for folks to quit? Why are they trying to kill the first REAL smoking cessation product ever created?

 

[Yiana]

BP has been churning out "smoking cessation" products for 20+ years now that were never intended to work. The government has been waging a propaganda "war on smoking" for generations, all the while taking money from those who profit most from it. All this has been in an attempt to placate the sheeple and lull them into believing that the government cares and wants us to quit smoking so we can live longer and be healthier. The sad fact is that it's not true. They don't want folks to quit smoking. Lots of good points here about BT, BP, medical industry, and tax dollars being lost, but that's not the biggest threat from vaping. Not only does smoking generate 100's of BILLIONS of dollars a year in various revenues, but above all else it's population control. Smoking is the single biggest killer in America. If they really cared, they would have banned tobacco itself 50 years ago. Some bean counter somewhere along the way realized that we all pay Social Security and Medicare taxes and that they are one of the single biggest sources of income for the federal government. It's the one part of your income taxes that is completely exempt from refund. The government has been robbing from that well since it was first dug, and they are always looking for new ways to fill their bucket from it. If a person smokes from their teens until it kills them, most will never live long enough to make a dent in the coffers by drawing SSI or Medicare benefits. They take the money from us without our consent and spend it as they please, and if we don't live long enough to collect it, they never have to give it back. And if they can collect billions more each year in taxes from the thing that is killing us off before they have to support us with the money we gave them to do so, so much the better for them. Vaping doesn't just threaten the money they make in sales and taxes legally, but it threatens the money they steal behind closed doors as well. It's one of the biggest single threats to the government and I honestly can't believe they have waited 10 years to do anything about it. It should have been obvious to them years ago that their anti-vaping propaganda wasn't working and we are smarter tan they give us credit for. I guess they underestimated it and us and now they are paying catch-up with this blanket legislation that is obviously meant to completely kill vaping outright.

This!!^^^^^

 

[DC2]

I'm sure all that is true, but *purposely* trying to make people die before it's really "their time" is called "murder", and I don't think America will stand for it. They might get away with their silliness for a while, but I firmly believe that since the truth and the science is on our side, they will ultimately be FORCED to reconcile with it.

I also believe history will some day show them for what they are.
But I think it will take a LOT longer than you think it will.

 

[DC2]

If it is All about the Money, which Many including myself believe, then once e-Liquids are at a Tax Rate that equates a PAD Smoker then why would there be Any Need to Demonize e-Cigarettes?

That would be true, if the government was the only one with a hand in this game.
But the fact is, there are many other players who want the game shut down entirely.

It seems as though you are arguing that only what the government wants (taxes) matter in the end.
But there is a compromise that makes all players happy, and that is removal of the product from the market.

Some have Argued with Policy Makers that if I take a Smoker and I hold in One Hand a pack of Cigarettes and in the Other an e-Cigarette and then tell them. "It is going to cost you the Exact Same. But the e-Cigarette is Clearly Safer.", that smokers will move towards e-Cigarettes. State and the Fed will get their Tax Monies. And Public Health will have been Improved.

The safety of electronic cigarettes is not by itself creating a move to electronic cigarettes.
Cost savings are a factor, and flavors are a factor, and ease of use is a factor.

Take away the last three by deeming and the lateral movement slows down considerably.

Make the public believe that the safety factor is not true...
And the whole thing ends abruptly.

 

[zoiDman]

That would be true, if the government was the only one with a hand in this game.
But the fact is, there are many other players who want the game shut down entirely.

It seems as though you are arguing that only what the government wants (taxes) matter in the end.
But there is a compromise that makes all players happy, and that is removal of the product from the market.

...

So?

People have wanted Cigarettes taken off the Market for Generations. It Didn't happen then. It Isn't going to happen Now. And it Aint gonna happen in the Future. And everyone knows that Cigarettes pose a Clear and Present Danger to Public Health. Has known it for Years.

What does it really Matter if there is some Group out there that Doesn't Like Cigarettes? Or the Stuff we can't talk about? Or Gambling? Or e-Cigarettes?

If there is something out there that can Bring In a Boat Load of Tax Revenues to both the Feds and the States on a Continual Bases, who cares if there is some Group who Doesn't like it or thinks it should be Shut Down? Their views will be consider Long After the Financial Benefits of Taxing it are considered.

 

[Tommy-Chi]

If anyone comes looking for me... tell them that I've gone missing, and I sold all that "vape gear."

 

[Lessifer]

So?

People have wanted Cigarettes taken off the Market for Generations. It Didn't happen then. It Isn't going to happen Now. And it Aint gonna happen in the Future. And everyone knows that Cigarettes pose a Clear and Present Danger to Public Health. Has known it for Years.

What does it really Matter if there is some Group out there that Doesn't Like Cigarettes? Or the Stuff we can't talk about? Or Gambling? Or e-Cigarettes?

If there is something out there that can Bring In a Boat Load of Tax Revenues to both the Feds and the States on a Continual Bases, who cares if there is some Group who Doesn't like it or thinks it should be Shut Down? Their views will be consider Long After the Financial Benefits of Taxing it are considered.

Well, in this instance it's the groups with a lot of money that also provide much of the existing Tax Revenues, probably more than e-cigarettes will ever generate, along with other big lobbying money. It's not like it's just the actual ANTZ that would benefit from vaping disappearing.

 

[zoiDman]

Well, in this instance it's the groups with a lot of money that also provide much of the existing Tax Revenues, probably more than e-cigarettes will ever generate, along with other big lobbying money. It's not like it's just the actual ANTZ that would benefit from vaping disappearing.

Who Benefits from No e-Cigarette Market? And for that matter, Who is even (Today) calling for e-Cigarettes to be Banned?

I hear a Lot of Groups saying that e-Cigarettes needs to be Regulated. And I hear a Lot of Policy Makers saying that the FDA has to Act Now. I'm just not Hearing many who are calling for e-Cigarette to go away.

 

[Rossum]

Who Benefits from No e-Cigarette Market? And for that matter, Who is even (Today) calling for e-Cigarettes to be Banned?

Well, the (dis)honorable Jr. Senator from Massachusetts for one.

 

[Lessifer]

Who Benefits from No e-Cigarette Market? And for that matter, Who is even (Today) calling for e-Cigarettes to be Banned?

I hear a Lot of Groups saying that e-Cigarettes needs to be Regulated. And I hear a Lot of Policy Makers saying that the FDA has to Act Now. I'm just not Hearing many who are calling for e-Cigarette to go away.

I never said ban, I said disappear, likely regulated out of existence or to limited existence.

BT benefits by having competition removed both for their cigarettes and for their inferior cigalikes. The government benefits because tax and MSA money is already in place for the cigarette market. Pharma companies would benefit by the continuance of "smoking related illnesses" and their accompanying treatments, grant monies, NRT, cessation medications, etc. Tobacco control groups benefit by their continued existence. Universities benefit by continued grant money.

Depending on how you see things, unrestricted growth of vapor products could realistically lead to the end of smoked tobacco in a generation or two, which would then lead to an end to the various industries that have developed to "combat" tobacco.