The FDA and hardware (questions)

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zoiDman

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If the deeming passes as currently written, there won't be a market to regulate. There will be no juice sales because there will be no refillabe gear available. At least not legally. And selling bottles of juice will be illegal on day one after the regs go into effect. This

Predicate Product Exists: Altria In Negotiations To Acquire

is the only known usable piece of vaping gear that will qualify as existing before the grandfather date, and a tobacco company is trying to buy the rights to it now. (Isn't it funny they picked such an arbitrary grandfather date? Isn't it coincidental that there is only one known patent that existed before that date? No back room deals there, I'm sure. ;)) How many vapers do you know that would be satisfied with that thing? If it was the only thing available, how many would you buy before you gave up? How long will Altria manufacture theses things before they decide to quit losing money on them? No one, not even BT or BP will shell out the money to get through the application process for new gear knowing they will end up losing billions in the long term. And no one will buy a cheesy sealed system cig-a-like when they cost $50 each and only last 3 or 4 hours.

We all have our gear that we can use for now, but what happens when it breaks? Will you take a chance on ordering contraband from another country and having it shipped to your home? How many of us are going to have the ability to fabricate new gear ourselves? One in ten? One in a thousand? And of those, how many are going to be willing to take a chance on selling unapproved gear on the black market? When there is no more functional gear, there is no more vaping. Those of us that are smart have a stash of DIY materials and extra gear, but when your last piece of gear wears out 5 or 10 years from now, what will you do? I'm handy enough to build my own mod, but no way in hell I'd take a chance on going to prison for selling them in quantity.

And what happens in a couple of years when they figure out folks are still finding ways to vape and push to make possession of gear illegal?

The regulations aren't going to kill vaping immediately after they pass. We will be able to carry on, huddled in our basements, looking over our shoulders till our supplies run out. It's more like putting someone in an airtight room and waiting till the oxygen runs out.

This is 1 Possible Scenario. Allbeit, a Worst Case Scenario. But a Scenario none the less.

Another Possible Scenario is that BT already has a handful of PMTA's ready to be submitted. And that they will Submit the Day after Deeming is Finalized. And will receive Approval during a 90 Day "Grace Period" that the FDA Offers.

I don't see the FDA Crashing the e-Cigarette Market if there is Not an Approvable e-Cigarette or Two waiting in the wings. Same with e-Liquids.

Liquid e-Liquid and Nicotine Base could very Well be Severely Restricted under an Emergency FDA Actions. But once again, I Don't see that happening Unless there are Pre-Filled Cartridges waiting in a Warehouse ready for a Store Shelf.
 

Hans Wermhat

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I don't have a basement, and my supplies aren't going to run out. :)
I'm only 40. Since I quit the death sticks, I'm hoping I may see 80, and I don't believe there is any gear out there that won't wear out before then. I AM going to start buying some components to make my own mods after the 1st of the year, but machining attys is beyond my current skill set. Electrical, plumbing, carpentry, cabinet making - check. Machining metal, no. And the tools are prohibitively expensive. :(
 

zoiDman

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Excellent article how one uses knowledge to make predictions not,
just take shots in the dark.
Regards
Mike

I thought you might Like it.

And perhaps now You See how making Prediction based on Todays Market is Kinda Silly with Deeming Looming in the Very Near Future.
 

Hans Wermhat

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Liquid e-Liquid and Nicotine Base could very Well be Severely Restricted under an Emergency FDA Actions. But once again, I Don't see that happening Unless there are Pre-Filled Cartridges waiting in a Warehouse ready for a Store Shelf.

The deeming regs as currently written only allow for pre-filled, sealed devices. Unless that changes, choosing your juice and refilling your tank will be a thing of the past. And the FDA is expecting there is nothing that will qualify as "predicate" sitting around anywhere currently in any real quantity.
 

AndriaD

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It's hard to find a basement in the south ;)

Not at all. We had a basement in the last house we rented before buying this one, and pretty much all the houses in that neighborhood did too. However we wanted no stairs to negotiate, so we bought a house built on a "slab" (concrete). Thus we have no worries about radon or mold (in that last rental house, mold ruined a huge amount of stuff we had stored in the basement!).

But lots of houses in the south have basements!

Andria
 
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haleysdadda

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X-ray would likely show bottle outlines, followed by a sniff test for confirmation? I dunno. I don't like it either, but the post office inspecting packages is not unheard of, is it? Especially immediately following the implementation of a new law like the one in question.
It's not narrow minded to try to save yourself and those closest to you when it becomes apparent you can't save everyone. It's also not narrow-minded to tell the ruling cabal openly, "No, I will not comply!"

Or are you suggesting that all of us should subject ourselves to the FDAs whims by using only the products that your rulers have decided are "approved" (if any)?


Oh, it's gonna suck for them, but this is not our doing, nor do I see how it would help them at all for us to comply.


Please find out how it was shipped. I'm betting it wasn't "First Class" because First Class is protected and cannot be opened without a search warrant. See question 4. on this page.
See this is why i hate these 2nd & 3rd person stories. Because we can't ask these questions. Because my vapemail always comes first class! I can't let myself believe these stories without proper answers! See if I was the guy this happened to I would be making noise about this if I didn't get a better explanation than it violated some state bill!
Or was it that this guy knew he was doing something wrong and had to keep his mouth shut?! Did he know this kind of thing could happen? If we choose to circumvent the law this is the risk we take! If he doesn't like the law he either needs to try and change it or move!
 

Hans Wermhat

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All mail is subject to inspection in our post-9/11 world, and if that box went through an x-ray machine and they saw contraband in it, they wouldn't need a warrant to open and inspect it. Probable cause laws allow them to circumvent a warrant in the event they believe a law is being broken.
 

Rossum

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I'm only 40. Since I quit the death sticks, I'm hoping I may see 80, and I don't believe there is any gear out there that won't wear out before then. I AM going to start buying some components to make my own mods after the 1st of the year, but machining attys is beyond my current skill set. Electrical, plumbing, carpentry, cabinet making - check. Machining metal, no. And the tools are prohibitively expensive. :(
I'm 56 and I'm planning for 30 years. I doubt I'll actually live that long, but I'd really be kicking myself if I'm still alive 20 or 25 years from now and run out of stuff. Anyway, it wouldn't bother me to plan for 40 instead of 30. I'd simply buy 3 more liters of nic, which I'll probably do anyway.

I don't know what kind of gear you use, but Chinese atties of all kinds are dirt cheap. Stock up.
 

Rossum

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All mail is subject to inspection in our post-9/11 world, and if that box went through an x-ray machine and they saw contraband in it, they wouldn't need a warrant to open and inspect it. Probable cause laws allow them to circumvent a warrant in the event they believe a law is being broken.
Did you read paragraph 4 at the link I previously posted? Allow me to post it again for your convenience:
United States Postal Inspection Service

I'm betting the package in question was sent "Priority", not "First Class".
 

Hans Wermhat

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A liter of nic will likely last me 2 years and some change if I just make juice for me. I use Kayfuns most of the day and go through 15 ml or so a day, but I keep a dripper handy and puff through 75 ml a week or so in them. I'm a SERIOUS chain vaper! Lol! A liter of VG is a 2 week supply for me. I'm stocking up on KFL's and even found replacement bases for my Velocity for $6 the other day.
 

curiousJan

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Agreed as evidenced by this thread.

You do realize that we CAN'T read them, right? Because they're super secret and when TVECA released the table of contents the FDA got their panties in a bunch over it. I believe a senator had some public remarks about it too, iirc.
 

zoiDman

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The deeming regs as currently written only allow for pre-filled, sealed devices. Unless that changes, choosing your juice and refilling your tank will be a thing of the past. And the FDA is expecting there is nothing that will qualify as "predicate" sitting around anywhere currently in any real quantity.

Here's the Problem.

We Don't know what Went to the OMB/OIRA. Or of what went to the OMB/OIRA, what was Check Marked as OK. And what was Red Lined for Removal or Amendment.

I'm not say'n that you Might not be Correct. I'm just say'n that you Might not be Correct.
 
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ReigntheGamer

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I'm only 40. Since I quit the death sticks, I'm hoping I may see 80, and I don't believe there is any gear out there that won't wear out before then. I AM going to start buying some components to make my own mods after the 1st of the year, but machining attys is beyond my current skill set. Electrical, plumbing, carpentry, cabinet making - check. Machining metal, no. And the tools are prohibitively expensive. :(

You mean lathes like the ones we have in our welding shop? :lol:
 

Hans Wermhat

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Did you read paragraph 4 at the link I previously posted?
Yes. I can't quote chapter & verse, but there is something in the patriot act that allows this law to be circumvented. It's worded loosely enough to apply in this situation. The statute of limitations and forum rules prevent me from saying how I found this out, but trust me. It's in there. All they need is a "reasonable suspicion" that there is something in the package that violates even the most obscure or irrelevant law. Big brother is more powerful than he has ever been.
 

AndriaD

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A liter of nic will likely last me 2 years and some change if I just make juice for me. I use Kayfuns most of the day and go through 15 ml or so a day, but I keep a dripper handy and puff through 75 ml a week or so in them. I'm a SERIOUS chain vaper! Lol! A liter of VG is a 2 week supply for me. I'm stocking up on KFL's and even found replacement bases for my Velocity for $6 the other day.

I'm laughing my fanny off at the moment... I just did the math, and a full liter of nic would last me almost 14 yrs. :lol: 5ml daily of 5mg, and if I really needed to, I could half my intake again, to 2.5mg, to double my stash yet again.

People that are really serious about stockpiling maybe oughta try to bring their consumption down -- if you can't vape less, then vape weaker. If you drop by like 1mg a week, your body won't even notice. But huffing thru 10-15ml a day is no way to conserve.

Andria
 

skoony

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X-ray would likely show bottle outlines, followed by a sniff test for confirmation? I dunno. I don't like it either, but the post office inspecting packages is not unheard of, is it? Especially immediately following the implementation of a new law like the one in question.
A extended zipcode and or barcode on the shipping will tell exactly
who shipped it by crossreferencing data bases.

I thought you might Like it.

And perhaps now You See how making Prediction based on Todays Market is Kinda Silly with Deeming Looming in the Very Near Future.
I have never said otherwise. I was conspiring how things might go if left
alone to juxtapose that against why the FDA can't let vaping survive in
it's present form.
Regards
Mike
 

Rossum

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I'm laughing my fanny off at the moment... I just did the math, and a full liter of nic would last me almost 14 yrs. :lol: 5ml daily of 5mg, and if I really needed to, I could half my intake again, to 2.5mg, to double my stash yet again.

People that are really serious about stockpiling maybe oughta try to bring their consumption down -- if you can't vape less, then vape weaker. If you drop by like 1mg a week, your body won't even notice. But huffing thru 10-15ml a day is no way to conserve.
Some of us like our nicotine, Andria. Deal with it. :p
 
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