The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I'm a huge fan of almond too! I'm just now vaping the mix mentioned before (six days later after adding everything to the TFA Almond Amaretto):

I mixed some TFA Almond Amaretto at 9% alone, just to get a sense of it and it tastes very mild and a bit like plastic or maybe play-doh, to me.

Is this normal for this flavor on its own?

I've just now added:

1% Brown Sugar
1% Sugar Cookie
1% Toasted Almond
3% Belgian Waffle
3% Vanilla Swirl

Hoping for an amaretto cookie effect.

... And it's much better--I would say, "tolerable", but I'm still getting that plasticky taste in the backround. It's potentially a bummer because I bought 30ml of the stuff knowing it's my mom's favorite flavor (in general...she likes almonds, amarettos) but I haven't been able to make it work out yet. Then again, being out 3 or 5 bucks isn't the end of the world. I did get a great discount during a black friday sale

Will definitely add some sweet cream to the mix as you suggested and see how that works.

Not a flavor I have worked with, but I would immediately double all the percentages being careful to focus on creams and vanillas. I would add sweetener. Brown sugar is a flavoring, but not a sweetener. I use it a lot. Then I would add a fruit at a very low percentage, starting perhaps with .5% - 1%. That will help eliminate the play dough effect you mention. I would probably try either raspberry or strawberry. I would consider maybe pear, or peach or even apple. I use fruit in the background, not enough to taste to neutralize a host of chemical, floral, or "play do" type problems. I usually mix between 20 and 30% and I think you need more flavoring in the mix to allow the more dominant flavorings to come through and leave room for the supporting flavors to do their thing. Surely you will have to do a few 100DT's on this, but I think you're there. I would think that the creams and vanillas would need to be at 4 - 5% each in this mix. Also, sweetener or cotton candy is going to do wonderful things for the flavoring as well (2 - 4%). Finally, I think that the sugar cookie and waffle would maybe compete for flavor dominance. I might drop one or the other. Your taste can guide you here. You might end up with a mix around 25%, and that would be fine and leave plenty of room to tweak the individual flavorings to taste. Using a higher percentage should enable you to taste very close to final flavoring at the time of mix, which you need to nail a complex recipe like this quickly.

Good luck!

 

[Mr.Mann]

It is very difficult for me to work with AP -- that stuff can turn to corn chips fairly easily!

 

[lirruping]

Not a flavor I have worked with, but I would immediately double all the percentages being careful to focus on creams and vanillas. I would add sweetener. Brown sugar is a flavoring, but not a sweetener. I use it a lot. Then I would add a fruit at a very low percentage, starting perhaps with .5% - 1%. That will help eliminate the play dough effect you mention. I would probably try either raspberry or strawberry. I would consider maybe pear, or peach or even apple. I use fruit in the background, not enough to taste to neutralize a host of chemical, floral, or "play do" type problems. I usually mix between 20 and 30% and I think you need more flavoring in the mix to allow the more dominant flavorings to come through and leave room for the supporting flavors to do their thing. Surely you will have to do a few 100DT's on this, but I think you're there. I would think that the creams and vanillas would need to be at 4 - 5% each in this mix. Also, sweetener or cotton candy is going to do wonderful things for the flavoring as well (2 - 4%). Finally, I think that the sugar cookie and waffle would maybe compete for flavor dominance. I might drop one or the other. Your taste can guide you here. You might end up with a mix around 25%, and that would be fine and leave plenty of room to tweak the individual flavorings to taste. Using a higher percentage should enable you to taste very close to final flavoring at the time of mix, which you need to nail a complex recipe like this quickly.

Good luck!

I will definitely try several of these things, thank you very much! First I'm going to try adding the fruit and see what that does for it. I wish thought of that! It's really cool to me how small percentages of something in a mix can alter the overall impression. But I am just starting to think about those issues. It didn't occur to me that the sugar cookie/waffle might be competing or neutralizing each other or something--but in retrospect I had a similar experience with yellow cake and vanilla custard--they just did not work together. So I will choose one, and go with that. I guess I will rework the whole thing, adding maybe a spicy vanilla, too.
Really appreciate your thoughts.

BTW, do you find that creams and custards and cakes tend to kind of "absorb" the impact of other, say fruity flavors? I'm very new to this still, but I'm getting that feeling. I recently added just a tad too much of a pie crust flavoring to a mix that had plenty of coconut, and the coconut all but disappeared.

 

[lirruping]

I don't have that flavor, but one thing I have found that can *fix* odd notes of flavors is Vape Wizard from FA or even their Magic Mask. If and when I use those additives, it's only one drop per 10 mL and never more than 2 drops per 10 mL. Magic Mask is almost like an eraser for too much flavoring and Vape Wizard really does (IMO) work to balance out oddities in a mix.

Hey, it's worth a shot.

p.s. It is very difficult for me to work with AP -- that stuff can turn to corn chips fairly easily!

Hey Mr. Mann! I actually bought a bottle of Vape Wizard on impulse, but have yet to try it out. I'm kind of ascared, to be honest It's like the AP, in reputation at least. I have yet to get the fritos thing, but I have been like SUPER cautious with AP and also only used it a few times. In one case it brought two kinds of chocolate together in an amazing way. Someone else's recipe, of course

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I will definitely try several of these things, thank you very much! First I'm going to try adding the fruit and see what that does for it. I wish thought of that! It's really cool to me how small percentages of something in a mix can alter the overall impression. But I am just starting to think about those issues. It didn't occur to me that the sugar cookie/waffle might be competing or neutralizing each other or something--but in retrospect I had a similar experience with yellow cake and vanilla custard--they just did not work together. So I will choose one, and go with that. I guess I will rework the whole thing, adding maybe a spicy vanilla, too.
Really appreciate your thoughts.

BTW, do you find that creams and custards and cakes tend to kind of "absorb" the impact of other, say fruity flavors? I'm very new to this still, but I'm getting that feeling. I recently added just a tad too much of a pie crust flavoring to a mix that had plenty of coconut, and the coconut all but disappeared.

No, rather quite the opposite. The vanillas, creams and sweeteners tend to super enhance the primary flavorings while lending balance and smooth flavoring. Of course, you can overdo it, but keeping the percentages at about 50% of the mix or less, you won't have a problem with the secondaries overpowering the primaries. Good luck!

 

[lirruping]

No, rather quite the opposite. The vanillas, creams and sweeteners tend to super enhance the primary flavorings while lending balance and smooth flavoring. Of course, you can overdo it, but keeping the percentages at about 50% of the mix or less, you won't have a problem with the secondaries overpowering the primaries. Good luck!

Oh, I can definitely use some luck Maybe the absorption effect only applies with savory/bread type flavors?

It's possible I'm doing something else that I'm not accounting for that's causing a "cancel-out" type of effect, but I have definitely noticed my primary flavors diminishing with the addition of crusty/donutty elements. Eg, coconut was weakened in a mix by the addition of an apple pie flavor (which is FA, and mostly "pie"--not very "apple"), and in one case, I made a lovely strawberries and lemon cream juice that became markedly creamier (actually, chalkier) and much less strawberryish after adding 50% more cream and sitting over night. Maybe it was simply that I vaped the latter too soon--really just shook it up and tried it an hour or two later, and the mix needed just a bit more time to become itself.

I should say that most of the experiments where this has happened have been with FlavourArt flavors--not TFA. For all I know, that may make all the difference.

It is nice to be reassured that with TFA i can freely add, however, because i love me some cream and vanilla! OMG.. it's almost better than food sometimes

 

[AndriaD]

Oh, I can definitely use some luck Maybe the absorption effect only applies with savory/bread type flavors?

It's possible I'm doing something else that I'm not accounting for that's causing a "cancel-out" type of effect, but I have definitely noticed my primary flavors diminishing with the addition of crusty/donutty elements. Eg, coconut was weakened in a mix by the addition of an apple pie flavor (which is FA, and mostly "pie"--not very "apple"), and in one case, I made a lovely strawberries and lemon cream juice that became markedly creamier (actually, chalkier) and much less strawberryish after adding 50% more cream and sitting over night. Maybe it was simply that I vaped the latter too soon--really just shook it up and tried it an hour or two later, and the mix needed just a bit more time to become itself.

I should say that most of the experiments where this has happened have been with FlavourArt flavors--not TFA. For all I know, that may make all the difference.

It is nice to be reassured that with TFA i can freely add, however, because i love me some cream and vanilla! OMG.. it's almost better than food sometimes

I had this same effect with Inawera Biscuit; I had mixed up some Blueberry & Cream, and it was ok, but still seemed to need *something*... so I added what I thought was a fairly small amount of Biscuit to it. Immediately it went from "blueberry and cream" to "a bland cookie that might have a TOUCH of blueberry in it, somewhere".

At this point, I think I'm just giving up on making my own blueberry vape. After I get a lot more experience with juice mixing, maybe I can make something good with blueberry flavoring, but right now, it seems to be beyond my abilities.

Andria

 

[MasteroftheVape]

I put a couple blueberry recipies up a few weeks ago. I think I saw bill put a blueberry muffin up to.

 

[Stacy1]

What are some good tfa fruit flavors for a tart and tangy flavor profile

 

[MasteroftheVape]

What are some good tfa fruit flavors for a tart and tangy flavor profile

Key lime is always a fav.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Oh, I can definitely use some luck Maybe the absorption effect only applies with savory/bread type flavors?

It's possible I'm doing something else that I'm not accounting for that's causing a "cancel-out" type of effect, but I have definitely noticed my primary flavors diminishing with the addition of crusty/donutty elements. Eg, coconut was weakened in a mix by the addition of an apple pie flavor (which is FA, and mostly "pie"--not very "apple"), and in one case, I made a lovely strawberries and lemon cream juice that became markedly creamier (actually, chalkier) and much less strawberryish after adding 50% more cream and sitting over night. Maybe it was simply that I vaped the latter too soon--really just shook it up and tried it an hour or two later, and the mix needed just a bit more time to become itself.

I should say that most of the experiments where this has happened have been with FlavourArt flavors--not TFA. For all I know, that may make all the difference.

It is nice to be reassured that with TFA i can freely add, however, because i love me some cream and vanilla! OMG.. it's almost better than food sometimes

I think of TFA flavors as ingredients in a mix, carefully constructed, with maximum flexibility in recipe making. There are a few TFA flavorings that don't play nice with others. However, many other brands are stronger. Even small amounts can dominate a mix. I have used FA and FW flavorings that do just this and have posted recipes with them on this thread using them. Several other makers tend to make flavorings that can be used as single flavor mixes. TFA has maybe 5% of flavorings that work this way. So, TFA flavorings are meant to be mixed, even at high percentages compared with other flavoring brands. I only use other brand makers where TFA has no flavoring in a category. I use, for example, cream cheese icing. It's very strong and at maybe 1%, or so, it can be useful. However, I still think it takes away from the other ingredients, i.e., it doesn't play nice with others. TFA flavorings seem to work better when mixed in complex recipes. For this reason, I prefer TFA as it gives me more overall control on the final mix. Because they are not as dominant, they provide more "room" for adding multiple flavorings together to create nuances that are very difficult to achieve with other brands, at least for me, anyway.

All that being said, you can learn to work with the strengths and weaknesses of all the different brands, to make great juice. These strategies are different by brand, and often different by flavoring within brands. For this reason, juice making is just difficult enough to make it fun and interesting, imho. Something to be learned, perhaps mastered, certainly interesting along the way, and rarely completely intuitive. Keeps me interested!

However, when we discuss juice making possibilities to the micro management level, as with the use of scales, remember we are, in some ways, raising the bar for new juice makers, creating confusion, and, perhaps, erecting a barrier to entry. As I almost gave up on juice making once upon a time, because of the difficulties and lack of the intuitive nature of the craft, I work hard here to try and keep it simple, provide useful tips and proven techniques, rather than explore the depth of the micro possibilities using gear that may be beyond the reach of new makers. If we keep it straightforward and simple, post great recipes that new makers can replicate, we provide much needed help to the new juice makers, who just want to find an ADV or two, save money, and add a fun and creative hobby, while improving the vape. This is how I try to contribute on this thread.....help the new juice maker....period. I know how they feel, and how daunting the initial introduction to juice making can be, and try to lower the barrier to entry. May help others quit smoking, and/or remain smoke free. Really what it's all about for me. I like the KISS formula.

Forgive me for venturing far off the beaten path of your post, and your questions, but wanted to convey some thoughts that have arisen in my mind regarding the micro management of juice making, and to clarify for the new juice makers some basics. Good luck to you!

 

[trueagle]

I would like to say that I am grateful for the information I receive from this thread. I use a scale for certain things but it remains true that simplicity is the key. I must express my apologies if I step over the line with my contribution to the scales discussion. There is a whole separate thread for those who want to give It a try.
I have several friends asking me to help them due to the steeping for three weeks information they have received and how when I recommend over 10 percent total flavors mix the freak out. However they love the juice I've been making thanks to this HFM ATM ideas and processes. So no disrespect meant on my part. It's the same way I got clean from drugs was simplicity being the over complication lacks practicality.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I would like to say that I am grateful for the information I receive from this thread. I use a scale for certain things but it remains true that simplicity is the key. I must express my apologies if I step over the line with my contribution to the scales discussion. There is a whole separate thread for those who want to give It a try.
I have several friends asking me to help them due to the steeping for three weeks information they have received and how when I recommend over 10 percent total flavors mix the freak out. However they love the juice I've been making thanks to this HFM ATM ideas and processes. So no disrespect meant on my part. It's the same way I got clean from drugs was simplicity being the over complication lacks practicality.

Well said, and no problems, my friend. Perhaps I was too strong!

All Ideas are welcome here, just keep in mind our entire audience is my only real point here!

Good luck and thank you for participating!

 

[cliffy15]

What are some good tfa fruit flavors for a tart and tangy flavor profile

I have a fondness for green apple.

Orange is good too but is super strong...

 

[Stacy1]

I have a fondness for green apple.

Orange is good too but is super strong...

Is the green apple a good stand alone flavor?

 

[cliffy15]

I would have to say no. Very few are. I personally mix it with creams to smooth it out. I still cal it "green apple" but it's not only green apple.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Is the green apple a good stand alone flavor?

Stacy, almost any TFA fruit flavoring can be mixed as follows:

Fruit - 7 - 15% (varies by flavor, strength, etc.)
Sweet Cream - 5% (can substitute other creams such as Bavarian cream, etc.)
Vanilla Swirl - 4 - 5% (can substitute other vanillas, but the Swirl is the sweetest of the bunch)
Sweetener - 2- 4% (can substitute cotton candy at +/- 5%)

This is a rough idea about how to work with any TFA fruit flavoring. The supporting flavors will enhance and not dominate the mix, and if they do, just back off a bit on the "strong" flavor. Using this guideline, you'll be mixing fruit flavorings at about 18 - 30% total flavoring. Use taste testing to find the sweet spot on each fruit flavoring. Even a single test or two is all is will take to get to the sweet spot. Try to keep the fruit at about 1/2 of the flavoring and the supporting flavors at the other half. This will get you close to pretty good juice right off the bat. The supporting flavors will add depth, richness, smoothness and sweetness (like natural fruit). Some flavors are very strong like Orange Extract. Others are pretty weak like watermelon and lemon. Most are going to fall between 10 - 12%. Happy mixing!

 

[DarthEmma]

I just made about a dozen of Bill's recipes. I'd like for them to steep for a few days. I'll report back once I try them.

I just wanted to once again say thanks to everyone in this thread (and especially Bill) for all your help!

 

[Sgt.Rock]

I just made about a dozen of Bill's recipes. I'd like for them to steep for a few days. I'll report back once I try them.

I just wanted to once again say thanks to everyone in this thread (and especially Bill) for all your help!

I think you will find that Bill's recipes are good right now...they may mellow a bit over time but they are designed to be vaped at the time of mixing (ATM)

 

[Nic-holio]

I would like to say that I am grateful for the information I receive from this thread. I use a scale for certain things but it remains true that simplicity is the key. I must express my apologies if I step over the line with my contribution to the scales discussion. There is a whole separate thread for those who want to give It a try.
I have several friends asking me to help them due to the steeping for three weeks information they have received and how when I recommend over 10 percent total flavors mix the freak out. However they love the juice I've been making thanks to this HFM ATM ideas and processes. So no disrespect meant on my part. It's the same way I got clean from drugs was simplicity being the over complication lacks practicality.

I agree. I'm sorry if I talked too much about scales, accurate measuring with syringes, or anything else to be appropriate here in this topic. I am also grateful to the more experienced posting their info, experiences etc. here (I certainly need all the help I can get) and if I am disrupting that, discouraging anyone, or making this seem overcomplicated then I apologize and will definitely chill out.

I do try to be precise in most things I mess with. It's a losing battle much of the time, and being a beginner with DIY I don't have a lot of experience to tell me what's critical and what isn't, how much precision is required, etc. I do know from our early experiences buying e-liquid (back to back with multiple vendors) that we had a lot of problems getting a vendor to mix a bottle of liquid the same way twice, and that was what first drove me to start bookmarking DIY info 3 years ago. There are all the standard disclaimers and excuses (and never any refunds, of course) but when one bottle tastes right and the next tastes like alcohol and watered down spearmint, I think we all know what the real problem is and probably at least some of us have been there. This is part of where I "came from" on this journey.

Anywho, Bill thank you for everything you've shared and although "micromanaging" might be a bit strong, I know you mean well saying it and are just trying to keep it real here.