They gave there answer saying they not use anything harmful. Yes they could lie, yes they could forge reports as some companys have. Most likely 9 out of 10 company's prolly dont have reports to give they use safe ingredients from the start of making juice which is good enough for me. I was a smoker for 20 years i put plenty of toxins in me over the years KNOWING it would kill me slow as many did. Just boggles me that we have become so concerned about whats in our e juice.
The Muffin Man and The Milk Man - Company's response to Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl
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here is what the government has to say.
Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures associated with cigarette smoking: implications for risk assessment of food and flavoring workers. - PubMed - NCBI
regards
mike
there is no right direction.
the FDA is going to drop the hammer not because
vendors are not testing. they will step in because consumers
have no understanding of what will and will not harm them.
regards
mike
I concur, for me going from having COPD a year 1/2 ago not only my x-rays look and feel better but my taste and smell / stamina are on par to the years before.
Do I consider vaping a totally safe and healthy choice no !
Are you sure about that ?there is no right direction.
the FDA is going to drop the hammer not because
vendors are not testing. they will step in because consumers
have no understanding of what will and will not harm them.
regards
mike
Quitting Smoking | CHANTIX® (varenicline) Safety Info
It doesn't boggle me at all. It makes perfect sense. We all quit smoking to avoid all the chemicals that were killing us. And while we were inhaling all those chemicals we were making excuses for doing it.
all what chemicals?
my lungs a perfectly clear after switching to vaping.
no more day long coughing and hacking. no more
three or four sore throats a year. haven't had even a cold yet.
hmmm,wonder what chemicals are causing that?
regards
mike
I see your point, but as for me im satisfied knocking it down to a few chems compared to the thousands we use to inhale. To each there own
Kat, i'm not gonna comment on your classification of the op's actions as an " unwarranted witch hunt " , but i am curious though, why do you think these types of threads will take away your options. The diacetyl issue has been talked about on this forum since 2010. Fast forward five years and out of ( by some estimates ) two thousand vendors, less than ten have voluntarily published test results. If you compare the level of diketones in the VS testing and Dr. Farsalinos testing about eighteen months ago, there is a lot more diketones in dairy flavored juices today. Dr. F himself said that he was shocked at the level of diketones reported in some liquids.
There is great demand for diketones from a large percentage of vapers ( whether or not they know they are demanding it ). Otherwise you won't see these levels. I had a long conversation with Gavin Tucker, one of the co-owners of Five Pawns recently. He told me that they tried very hard to deliver the same flavor profile without diketones and they just couldn't. These flavors aren't going anywhere ( well unless the FDA regs require their removal which is two to three years away from implementation by most accounts, and even then i am certain they will be available in the black market. Even in the worst case scenario one could purchase food flavoring containig diketones and diy ).
I can tell from personal experience that the op is right in not taking the vendors word that there are " no harmful ingredients " in the juice, at face value. Do you think it's accidental that the vendor responded in this manner ? Five Pawns rep was a lot more unequivocal that there are no diketones in their juice last October when i asked. The op has every right to ask for clarification on the " no harmful ingredients " comment from the only vendor he buys juice from.
Most smokers that quit and move on to vaping, is the exact reason your mind is boggled?
I am sorry but the reason people are concerned about what they are putting into their bodies - especially vapers, should be very clear at this point. To be confused about this is something that would need elementary conversation and at most a 5 minute explanation in person.
Its the fact spent all the years smoking now theres the big need to have only the purest things put into our body? The purest thing would not to inhale anything if thats the case. Like i said to each there own. Im happy with cutting out the numerous carcinogens in analogs. Sure i would like safer e juice but to say a company shady just because they dont give out full test results kinda like asking a used car dealer for maintenance records you probally not gonna get them. Good thing theres more car dealers around to shop from to suit all our needs.
I fully understand and respect your position ! You are making an informed decision.
The reason this vendors answer comes across as a little shady though, is the way they answered the question imo. The answer to the question ; " does your juice contain DA and/or AP " , is not " our juice doesn't contain harmful ingredients and we vape it ourselves all the time " . This is not how responsible and transparent vendors answer a question like this imo.
The op asked a simple question and any of the following answers would have been fine :
_ We haven't tested. Make your own decision as to whether you purchase our juice.
_ We have tested and here are the results.
_ We have tested and have decided not to publish because we don't believe diketones are an issue for the following reasons ...
etc ....
Just my take !
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Thanks everyone for your opinions. Good discussion all around, some good opinions from both sides. Too bad we can't do this in person.
If I've offended anyone with this thread, I am sorry, it wasn't my intention.
If One Hit Wonder ever answers my email in a more detailed manner I'll definitely let you know.
If I've offended anyone with this thread, I am sorry, it wasn't my intention.
If One Hit Wonder ever answers my email in a more detailed manner I'll definitely let you know.
Only 1 problem, never in the history of mankind have I seen our aim for a higher standard achieved, so if we don't ever aim for the highest possible, we will never make progress toward better standards. If we take the stance you take, then we should get tricked by companies like 5 Pawns, we should have concealed test results or none at all because hey - what's the big deal? Smoking is worse right?
There are researchers presenting worrying results, they are passed off as lunatics like the global warming scientists of old were. How can a person openly say that vaping is safer without doubt, and not care to prove why? Without research and demanding better standards wherever he looks upon and sees and inadequacy? Don't you people see, shielding companiesfrom these so called "witch hunts" is like patting the back of that car salesman for not providing maintenance records, and giving a high five for being strong and not telling why he is even hiding it.
Why do we have to have division among out ranks that dare rear there heads and proclaim stupidity like was spewed on the first page "if you care then you get your own test results". That has got to be the most ridiculous comment I have ever read since this whole topic of safety in vaping I have ever heard. If that needs any explanation as to why, then I am sorry, you are beyond the scope of this topic in general, and need to concern yourself with a few other basic life lessons before you can comprehend just exactly, what it is we are trying to do here.
The only time someone could ever say something like that is when they have malice intent, or for instance works for the company and is now exhibiting clear signs of conflicts of interest. I just can't wrap my mind why it has become to hard to inquire about a potentially harmful substance yet have the people -consumers- that we ask these questions for, take the side of the company that takes in thousands of dollars, and then they -other consumers- dare tell us stop this "witch hunt". When in fact this is for the sake of all consumers. Why must the obliteration of a company or many companies seen as an unnessisary thing if we are going to grow out of this Wild Wild West stage, in order to become an industry where we can make better choices based on being properly informed. Why would anyone say "well if you don't know or don't like it, then stop vaping". Don't you people realize how bad that makes us look on the outside? And as a collective industry as a whole?
Finally note: No one should ever be sidelined for their pursuit of information that leads to a greater understanding for all, as long as it doesn't hurt the whole.
The reason these threads concern me, and the reason you'll often hear me say "don't take away my choices" in threads like these are usually because :
- someone says "known to cause lung disease" - this is not true, no such thing is known (and I believe this thread started with a statement to that effect)
- of course, someone who hasn't done their homework (maybe they're new to vaping, maybe they're not the "do your homework type", whatever - they don't know), seeing the above, is then gonna get freaked out and start demanding regulation, or demand that all vendors test their juices - and then the real division of vapers begins
Yeah, divide and conquer... I hate it. I hate that it's working. I'd honestly much rather we all got along and let each other pursue our own vape nirvana. My choices won't interfere with yours. Yours won't interfere with mine, unless you're repeating malicious disinformation, or calling for regulations, or demanding that ALL vendors provide test results (for DA and AP now - but what will it be next week? next month? next year?).
And I think I already said in this thread, but maybe it was another so I'll repeat it - I don't work in any industry that's even remotely vape-related.
My interest in this is twofold - choices for me and choices for future vapers. The current climate isn't looking good for either.
- someone says "known to cause lung disease" - this is not true, no such thing is known (and I believe this thread started with a statement to that effect)
- of course, someone who hasn't done their homework (maybe they're new to vaping, maybe they're not the "do your homework type", whatever - they don't know), seeing the above, is then gonna get freaked out and start demanding regulation, or demand that all vendors test their juices - and then the real division of vapers begins
Yeah, divide and conquer... I hate it. I hate that it's working. I'd honestly much rather we all got along and let each other pursue our own vape nirvana. My choices won't interfere with yours. Yours won't interfere with mine, unless you're repeating malicious disinformation, or calling for regulations, or demanding that ALL vendors provide test results (for DA and AP now - but what will it be next week? next month? next year?).
And I think I already said in this thread, but maybe it was another so I'll repeat it - I don't work in any industry that's even remotely vape-related.
My interest in this is twofold - choices for me and choices for future vapers. The current climate isn't looking good for either.
Really? What percentage of vendors supply them?
And who put you in charge of deciding what's "more than enough"?
I think it is great some are taking a proactive stance and asking companies to disclose if there are diketones in their eliquids if they are concerned about them, I have done so myself.
I have said this before... just because someone smoked does not mean they do not care about anything they consume or should be treated as such. I would hate to think eliquid manufactures are saying "hey they were smokers we can put what ever the heck we want in eliquids because obviously they don't care what they inhale so it does not matter"
I honestly think when it comes to issues like this a few take a tough stand on either side of the issue and you see it played out over and over (ad nauseum) by those few key players when ever the issue is brought up in any thread verses a division in the community.
I have said this before... just because someone smoked does not mean they do not care about anything they consume or should be treated as such. I would hate to think eliquid manufactures are saying "hey they were smokers we can put what ever the heck we want in eliquids because obviously they don't care what they inhale so it does not matter"
I honestly think when it comes to issues like this a few take a tough stand on either side of the issue and you see it played out over and over (ad nauseum) by those few key players when ever the issue is brought up in any thread verses a division in the community.
Sorry YoursTruli, but I will not be quiet when I see things like "this compound is known to cause lung disease" ... letting misinformation or disinformation stand unchallenged makes it appear to be true (which is probably why so many anti-vaping articles don't allow comments).
I rarely think this is done on ECF with malicious intent... popcorn lung is scary as hell, so I understand the fear. But that doesn't change the fact that the WE DON'T KNOW WHAT CAUSES IT.
I used the word "disinformation" in my previous post - I'm rethinking that now. It may be misinformation, I'm not sure. It would depend on the original source of the info and the intent of that original source.
I rarely think this is done on ECF with malicious intent... popcorn lung is scary as hell, so I understand the fear. But that doesn't change the fact that the WE DON'T KNOW WHAT CAUSES IT.
I used the word "disinformation" in my previous post - I'm rethinking that now. It may be misinformation, I'm not sure. It would depend on the original source of the info and the intent of that original source.
Here's how I see this, and of course some will think I'm just one of those few who keep popping into threads like this for some nefarious purpose, but I'm as free to express my opinion as anyone else is.
The OP was concerned about liquids he vapes, he contacted the vendor asking for information. They answered. He was not satisfied with the answer and wanted more, such as test results. That is perfectly reasonable.
What is somewhat questionable, at least to me, is the need to post a thread detailing all of this prior to some resolution. I'm not accusing the OP of anything, just expressing that we should consider the implications of our actions and not make mountains out of molehills.
If they don't provide you with the information you feel you need, it's time to move on to another company. If we've learned anything the past few weeks, it should be, if you are concerned about certain chemicals in your vape, you should ask for test results. If you don't get test results, move on.
Manufacturers of a product that is distributed to the masses has to bear some form of responsibility. At the very least, they should know what is in their product. Shouldn't matter what the product is. A very simple question along the lines of "what does your product contain?" Should be followed with a very simple response.
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