Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[druckle]

Spaced coils gunk-up less than contact coils. Other than that, I've never noticed any difference.

Yes, that's the reason I like spaced coils. That and I seem to find it's easier to brush off/clean the spaced coils so I can use them for a very long time before I have to make a new coil.

Duane

 

[TheBloke]

Here's my spaced coils set up which work so well there is no need to change really

Looks good!

Just as you do .... gotta try other things

Yes I am familiar with the urge..

What do you feel are the benefits of contact coils? I used them for a long time and now use spaced coils with only about the thickness of a razor blade between the individual wraps so the coils are still pretty compact and seem to work well.

Duane

Yeah I think most of the benefits of truly contact are also reached with 'almost contact'.

In general it's been stated that contact/micro is most efficient - the example given in the 'End of microcoils' thread was comparing 10 candles, laid out an inch apart, versus 10 candles all together: same total heat, but 10x greater heat on a given area. I don't know if that is a huge practical benefit to vaping - some say yes, others say no. I also don't know if there remains any difference between a razor-blade difference and less-than-a-razor-blade difference. Presumably not much, if any.

The big advantage to me of contact, or near-contact, is compactness - fitting more easily into build space, and not having a huge amount of coil overhanging the airflow where it's not being adequately cooled.

But as that's just a factor of total coil size, any given 'nearly contact' coil could achieve it as well.

And some people say that having those little gaps is better for total airflow, as it's more space for the vapour to get out.

So no I don't think contact is a huge benefit over razor-blade gaps. I do think it's a great benefit over Ni200-style gaps, which were rarely so closely spaced. And I think the ability to have contacting coils is important because when one tries for 'razor blade' gaps, one might end up with one coil or another slightly touching.

So in conclusion, I think the ability to have working contact coils is a great benefit, and having a compact coil is a great benefit, but it's not necessarily any better to ensure it's 100% contact versus having tiny gaps.

 

[TheBloke]

The pre-torching will add a non conductive coating or more resistance at minimum

With electric taking the easiest route , expect that's why Tony & I have had better results torching

But I was under the impression my pre-pulsing was equivalent to torching? I am taking a length of wire and bending it to fit between two atty posts (not yet coiled), and firing it at 30W until it turns blue all over. That's the same colour that Tony gets with torching, so I assumed I was doing the same thing?

Basically I'm heating the wire to about 440°C, according to the Titanium colour/temp chart.

But then I find I still need to pulse when I've made it into a contact coil, before the TC kicks in. I don't know if Tony does as well.

 

[TheBloke]

Here's my pre-pulsing setup again.

Going from this:



To this:



(the blue doesn't show very well but the second one is blue all over.)

 

[druckle]

Looks good!



Yes I am familiar with the urge..



Yeah I think most of the benefits of truly contact are also reached with 'almost contact'.

In general it's been stated that contact/micro is most efficient - the example given in the 'End of microcoils' thread was comparing 10 candles, laid out an inch apart, versus 10 candles all together: same total heat, but 10x greater heat on a given area. I don't know if that is a huge practical benefit to vaping - some say yes, others say no. I also don't know if there remains any difference between a razor-blade difference and less-than-a-razor-blade difference. Presumably not much, if any.

The big advantage to me of contact, or near-contact, is compactness - fitting more easily into build space, and not having a huge amount of coil overhanging the airflow where it's not being adequately cooled.

But as that's just a factor of total coil size, any given 'nearly contact' coil could achieve it as well.

And some people say that having those little gaps is better for total airflow, as it's more space for the vapour to get out.

So no I don't think contact is a huge benefit over razor-blade gaps. I do think it's a great benefit over Ni200-style gaps, which were rarely so closely spaced. And I think the ability to have contacting coils is important because when one tries for 'razor blade' gaps, one might end up with one coil or another slightly touching.

So in conclusion, I think the ability to have working contact coils is a great benefit, and having a compact coil is a great benefit, but it's not necessarily any better to ensure it's 100% contact versus having tiny gaps.

Ok, that's the line of thinking I've been going with. It's very easy to go "near contact" with titanium because I can use larger diameter wire (26 or 24 gauge) and the shape is so stable that I don't have to worry about pulling a tight wick through there will deform anything. If I have space in the device I pull out the coil a lot and push it back together and go with the natural larger uniform spaces that produces. When things are tight I literally make a contact coil, insert a razor blade between each wrap and twist it slightly to open up a tiny gap. I actually like the wider spaces more for "anti-gunking" but when space is tight compromise has to be accepted.

Duane

 

[Quantum Mech]

But I was under the impression my pre-pulsing was equivalent to torching? I am taking a length of wire and bending it to fit between two atty posts (not yet coiled), and firing it at 30W until it turns blue all over. That's the same colour that Tony gets with torching, so I assumed I was doing the same thing?

Basically I'm heating the wire to about 440°C, according to the Titanium colour/temp chart.

But then I find I still need to pulse when I've made it into a contact coil, before the TC kicks in. I don't know if Tony does as well.

Yeah sure we are both oxidising the wire

Just not to the point of the bad stuff like I did last night

Never liked grey as much as gold n blue anyway

 

[BNEAT]

This is just a hunch, but I think contact coils became popular (and necessary) when devices were limited on power and vapers were trying to get the most out of their mechanical set-ups. Obviously, that's a thing of the past. The only contact coil I have left is in my stealth set-up.

 

[Quantum Mech]

This is just a hunch, but I think contact coils became popular (and necessary) when devices were limited on power and vapers were trying to get the most out of their mechanical set-ups. Obviously, that's a thing of the past. The only contact coil I have left is in my stealth set-up.

+1 Sounds right to me

I get no noticeable difference if coils are touching or spaced

Just as others mention, less gunking

Use Ti, less gunking still .... not used anything before that can have a full tank of juice vaped through it and still shiny n clean

 

[Quantum Mech]

I'm still waiting for my Ti to arrive. This conversation keeps getting way above my pay grade, thermal boundaries and such, but it sure is interesting. I think once my coils get built and wicked I'll just start out at about 150 degrees lower than I'm vaping at with Ni200 and raise it until I like the results. A "conversion table" would be nice, but I'm getting the impression that the conversion factor may vary from chip to chip as well as device to device and be affected by the specific liquid in use as well as wicking in the builds. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but just the differences with boiling water seem to indicate something more complex is happening than just the difference in resistance coefficients.

I would also speculate that the water, for the reference tests, needs to be either RO filtered or, better still, distilled to insure no mineral content which can affect boiling temperature. Maybe not a lot, but enough to change things depending on the wire and any possible chemical reactions induced by the heat. Again, I could easily be wrong and will leave that to the experts out there.

Yes that will work great awsum

I started vaping my new coil today at 10j / 212f

Not much vapour production but still worked & gradually increased both

Have found with my builds that 260-290f works for me with 270f being the norm of late

 

[TheBloke]

Have found with my builds that 260-290f works for me with 270f being the norm of late

Ah ha, great - further proof that there are two settings needed: DNA 40, and not DNA 40. That's on an SX Mini M I assume (re 'J')?

Quick calc:

• Titanium coil of 0.30Ω, heated from 20°C -> 232°C (450°F), increases its resistance to 0.5226Ω
  • Vaping on an Ni200-expecting mod, using 0.006 TCR, a 0.30Ω -> 0.5226Ω rise is estimated to be a temperature of 20°C -> 143.6°C (290°F)
• Titanium coil of 0.30Ω, heated from 20°C -> 200°C (392°F), increases its resistance to 0.489Ω
  • Vaping on an Ni200-expecting mod, using 0.006 TCR, a 0.30Ω -> 0.489Ω rise is estimated to be a temperature of 20°C -> 126.6°C (260°F)

Therefore I would say your max setting of 290°F (143.6°C) is equivalent to 450°F (232°C), and your minimum of 260°F (126.6°C) is equivalent to 392°F (200°C) - a very reasonable range for 'normal TC'.

So it definitely seems like the DNA 40 does stuff differently - perhaps it's the pre-heat - and I think we can therefore presume:

• DNA 40: A blanket 90°F drop should be used, as Tony and Rossum et al have found, until we learn more
  • No precise calculation based on end temp is possible at this stage, but they find that 90°F works fine at usual TC target temps.
• Others: The figure found by the expected TCR calcs are appropriate, which will usually be an offset in the range 140°F - 160°F
  • A precise calculation can be made and I'll make a second version of my TCR calculator to do so.
  • (Of course a calculated figure is never necessary - just manual tuning and/or dropping it 140-160°F obviously works fine; but me, I like calculating )

 

[tchavei]

Hi.

Regarding contact coils, I see no advantage personally except that I can cool them more uniformly. They come out shorter so the air hole covers most of the coil. With spaced coils I have always two or three outside wraps on each side that are shiny and the 3 in the middle get all the juice.

That's as far as I experienced, the only advantage.

Regarding pulsing... I don't think I did that. Don't remember very well but I remember mounting the coil, checking resistance (0.40 Ohms) and nothing else... It's still at 0.40 after 3 or more weeks now.



Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

Hi.

Regarding contact coils, I see no advantage personally except that I can cool them more uniformly. They come out shorter so the air hole covers most of the coil. With spaced coils I have always two or three outside wraps on each side that are shiny and the 3 in the middle get all the juice.

That's as far as I experienced, the only advantage.

Regarding pulsing... I don't think I did that. Don't remember very well but I remember mounting the coil, checking resistance (0.40 Ohms) and nothing else... It's still at 0.40 after 3 or more weeks now.



Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony
I agree about round holes and long coils...that's why I have this sketch of what a dripper/bottom feed atomizer ought to be. It has slot, free standing, pipes feeding air from under the coil but air comes down through channels from the top. There are a couple other goodies I'd like. I checked on how much it would cost to have a local machine shop make a one off for me. I decided it was better to buy a new car. (exagerated a little, but not that much).

Duane

 

[tchavei]

Tony
I agree about round holes and long coils...that's why I have this sketch of what a dripper/bottom feed atomizer ought to be. It has slot, free standing, pipes feeding air from under the coil but air comes down through channels from the top. There are a couple other goodies I'd like. I checked on how much it would cost to have a local machine shop make a one off for me. I decided it was better to buy a new car. (exagerated a little, but not that much).

Duane

After being asked locally US120 for a 9.5mm tap, I believe you [emoji14]


Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[Quantum Mech]

Ah ha, great - further proof that there are two settings needed: DNA 40, and not DNA 40. That's on an SX Mini M I assume (re 'J')?

Quick calc:

• Titanium coil of 0.30Ω, heated from 20°C -> 232°C (450°F), increases its resistance to 0.5226Ω
  • Vaping on an Ni200-expecting mod, using 0.006 TCR, a 0.30Ω -> 0.5226Ω rise is estimated to be a temperature of 20°C -> 143.6°C (290°F)
• Titanium coil of 0.30Ω, heated from 20°C -> 200°C (392°F), increases its resistance to 0.489Ω
  • Vaping on an Ni200-expecting mod, using 0.006 TCR, a 0.30Ω -> 0.489Ω rise is estimated to be a temperature of 20°C -> 126.6°C (260°F)

Therefore I would say your max setting of 290°F (143.6°C) is equivalent to 450°F (232°C), and your minimum of 260°F (126.6°C) is equivalent to 392°F (200°C) - a very reasonable range for 'normal TC'.

So it definitely seems like the DNA 40 does stuff differently - perhaps it's the pre-heat - and I think we can therefore presume:

• DNA 40: A blanket 90°F drop should be used, as Tony and Rossum et al have found, until we learn more
  • No precise calculation based on end temp is possible at this stage, but they find that 90°F works fine at usual TC target temps.
• Others: The figure found by the expected TCR calcs are appropriate, which will usually be an offset in the range 140°F - 160°F
  • A precise calculation can be made and I'll make a second version of my TCR calculator to do so.
  • (Of course a calculated figure is never necessary - just manual tuning and/or dropping it 140-160°F obviously works fine; but me, I like calculating )

If it helps I was using between 380-420f with Ni200 iirc

Did get a couple of slightly dry hits at 420f though

 

[druckle]

I just put two new coils in two Magma drippers. One Titanium and one Ni200. They were on two Vapor Flasks..(just got one repaired one back). I adjusted the temps to be as equivalent as possible for the two wires and wicked them the same. Both were 26 gauge wire.
run at the same power level.

I knew what I would find but I just wanted to check my previous taste calibration. There is absolutely no comparison between the two wires for me. The Titanium tastes better..Much better.

OK I know I'm not tasting titanium nor am I tasting Nickel. My background assures me there is nothing metallic coming from either wire but there is "something" that makes Ti work better than NI for me. I wish I knew what it is but in the meantime I'll revel in my ignorance and enjoy my Ti vape.

Duane

 

[awsum140]

I'll preface this by saying I think my taste buds have seen better days after 50+ years of smoking.

I know the consensus is that there is little to no leaching of metal into the vape stream. On the other hand, my tired, old, taste buds get a definite metallic taste when I have a new set of Ni200 coils in my Foggers. Now I know taste is subjective and can be influenced to expectations and perceptions, but I definitely taste something metallic there for at least six or eight tanks full. Whether it stops because of oxide coating on the wire or just plain crud buildup I have no idea. Yes, I clean the wire with isopropyl and PGA and have even torched the coils to get a light coating of oxide on them prior to wicking and still get that same taste. I sure hope Ti doesn't do the same thing for me.

 

[druckle]

I spent my life with Ti for other stuff and had thought it might be good for vaping but I never did anything about it until I started seeing Rossum's comments and Tchavei/Tony's posts about their expeience. A little chat with Tony convinced me I better look into Ti coils in a serious way. I gotta thank those guys big time.
Thanks Rossum!
Thanks Tony!

Little experiments as above and repeated remind me how happy I am that I got aimed at Ti coils. I'm hard pressed to imagine what might make me think about something else right now.

On the other hand if someone finds something better ......?

Duane

 

[Quantum Mech]

I'll preface this by saying I think my taste buds have seen better days after 50+ years of smoking.

I know the consensus is that there is little to no leaching of metal into the vape stream. On the other hand, my tired, old, taste buds get a definite metallic taste when I have a new set of Ni200 coils in my Foggers. Now I know taste is subjective and can be influenced to expectations and perceptions, but I definitely taste something metallic there for at least six or eight tanks full. Whether it stops because of oxide coating on the wire or just plain crud buildup I have no idea. Yes, I clean the wire with isopropyl and PGA and have even torched the coils to get a light coating of oxide on them prior to wicking and still get that same taste. I sure hope Ti doesn't do the same thing for me.

Am sure your notice a difference with Ti

That difference being all you taste is juice

I could definitely taste something with Ni200 even after cleaning too

Had a kanthal coil on the go the other day & Ti is better to me than that too

 

[druckle]

Am sure your notice a difference with Ti

That difference being all you taste is juice

I could definitely taste something with Ni200 even after cleaning too

Had a kanthal coil on the go the other day & Ti is better to me than that too

Yes....Kanthal doesn't compete with temp limited Ti for me either. Now...there are all those mods that don't do temperature limiting cluttering up the closet.

Duane

 

[jks89]

I know the consensus is that there is little to no leaching of metal into the vape stream. On the other hand, my tired, old, taste buds get a definite metallic taste when I have a new set of Ni200 coils in my Foggers.

I never noticed it personally, but have definitely seen a good number of comments from others experiencing that as well. I've also seen many of those same people say they have NOT experienced it with Titanium.