Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[AtmizrOpin]

I'm curious as to why everyone is using such thick gauge wire. Even with Kanthal, I use the thinnest possible (32 ga) as I don't care about high ohms with a regulated mod. Thinner has less mass, so heats and cools more quickly. Faster vape, less browning of juice. With Ti, the resistance is far less, so it STILL allows for 8 or 9 wraps with 32ga, so lots of surface area and very fast heat/cool cycle. Am I missing something?

Where can you find 32 gauge Ti? I'd try it out. 8 or 9 wraps sounds like it would be up there in terms of resistance. Will that high of a resistance work with TC? I just did a twisted double 28 gauge Ni200 that hovers around .07 .06. I am interested in using different gauges of Ti just for the difference in resistance and workability than Ni200.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Where can you find 32 gauge Ti? I'd try it out. 8 or 9 wraps sounds like it would be up there in terms of resistance. Will that high of a resistance work with TC? I just did a twisted double 28 gauge Ni200 that hovers around .07 .06. I am interested in using different gauges of Ti just for the difference in resistance and workability than Ni200.

It should work on my IPV4s in TI more no problem, and I'm thinking that with 32ga, I can build coils that'll run on my mechs with 20a batts too. I'll be posting alot on the subject once I get to play with it all.

Edit: Sorry, Unkamen on Etsie offers it as small as 32 ga. I ordered a 30 and a 32. My thicker gauges of everything have laguished.

 

[TheBloke]

Where can you find 32 gauge Ti? I'd try it out. 8 or 9 wraps sounds like it would be up there in terms of resistance. Will that high of a resistance work with TC? I just did a twisted double 28 gauge Ni200 that hovers around .07 .06. I am interested in using different gauges of Ti just for the difference in resistance and workability than Ni200.

32 gauge Titanium Grade 1 is now available at Crazy Wire in the UK: GR1 (Grade 1) Titanium Wire. And it's been available at ZiVipf in Germany for a while (they also have 34 gauge): Titanium Wire - Zivipf Onlineshop

(Be aware that Zivipf's wire is not annealed, so it's super springy.)

But to answer the OP - surely the reason why everyone uses such thick wire is flavour? The thicker the wire, the more surface area, which I understood to give the best flavour. This is why people not only use thick(er) wire, but also use twisted wire and advanced coils like Claptons.

@LouisLeBeau you said "lots of surface area" but 8 wraps of 32 gauge is surely going to be a tiny surface area compared to 8 or more wraps of 26 gauge, or 8 or more wraps of twisted 2x28 gauge or whatever?

Now admittedly I don't know how much that helps in reality. I always get fairly poor flavour off vapes, compared to other people. And I've tried lots of fancy twisted coils and frankly I can't tell much difference. But I know the "conventional wisdom" is more surface area = more flavour, and that when people say that they are talking about thick wire. And 32 gauge is super super thin.

Oh, and the other factor - breakage. Don't you find your 32 gauge breaks all the time? Or are you only using under-screw attachment (like Lemo, Kayfun type decks?) I find my 26 gauge Titanium still breaks sometimes going through-post, so I'd hate to use anything thinner.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

SV = Stealthvape

Or

SV = Sweet Vape

?

There has been confusion about that stuff before and I banged my head several times before realizing two different shops.... [emoji14]

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

stealthvape of course!!!

 

[TheBloke]

Has anyone tried this Sweet Spot Vapour stuff? SSV? They're on the DNA 200 early adopters forum, and apparently they've done a lot of work making a custom wire with a special TCR. Based on Titanium but.. different somehow.

But at $1/foot ($33/10m), I am struggling to understand what could be so much better about it than regular Titanium or especially versus Resistherm/Alloy 120.

From their website, it seems the main work they've done is to change the Titanium flat TCR to a somewhat curved one. They claim this is better, because the increasing resistance at "optimum temperature" reduces strain on battery/reduces power requirements. They also say it works well with mech, VW as well as TC mods - and of course they've got a custom DNA 200 profile to make best use of it.

It all sounds a bit doubtful to me, and if I'd only seen their website I'd be comfortable writing them off as snake oil, like the $1/foot GPlat wire 'revolutionary vaping wire' that turned out to be SS317 welding wire!

However I have also seen them on the DNA 200 forums and there's no doubt they're highly technical guys with a whole lab worth of test equipment. And it would be easy to validate that they've changed the TCR of Titanium and if they have, that's at least proves they have some technical nouse (unless it turns out it's just some other grade of Titanium that already has that curve..)

Anyway, anyone here had experience with the wire?

 

[WideO]

Its like being a kindergarten teacher.

Although I only have a (very chatty) Senegal, I also have 2 labradors and 2 cats (and a turtle and koi), so I kinda know what you mean! And it's half on topic, as I started looking at vaping when we got Oscar. I read that cigarette smoke is very dangerous to them, so that's when I tried to quit cold turkey, and picked up vaping when I went crazy after a month. Still avoid vaping near him though, even though it's probably OK-ish.

And titanium might be the only thing they can't destroy with their beaks...

 

[awsum140]

I'm curious as to why everyone is using such thick gauge wire. Even with Kanthal, I use the thinnest possible (32 ga) as I don't care about high ohms with a regulated mod. Thinner has less mass, so heats and cools more quickly. Faster vape, less browning of juice. With Ti, the resistance is far less, so it STILL allows for 8 or 9 wraps with 32ga, so lots of surface area and very fast heat/cool cycle. Am I missing something?

When I coil a kanthal build for an older mod, 15 watt max, I usually use 32 or 30 gauge. It gives the right resistance with a reasonable number of wraps. Plus, being cheap, it helps me maximize battery life, LOL.

I tried 30 gauge nickel and titanium and found the vapor was fine, but flavor was "muted". I'm using 28 gauge now with good results and will be ordering some 26 gauge, from Stealth, in the near future to play with. I don't think mass is as important, regarding heat/cool, in a TC device. Many of them use a "preheat" cycle of one sort or another to eliminate the lag as the coil heats...they are all higher powered than the older VW mods and can easily handle the power demands.

 

[tchavei]

Has anyone tried this Sweet Spot Vapour stuff? SSV? They're on the DNA 200 early adopters forum, and apparently they've done a lot of work making a custom wire with a special TCR. Based on Titanium but.. different somehow.

But at $1/foot ($33/10m), I am struggling to understand what could be so much better about it than regular Titanium or especially versus Resistherm/Alloy 120.

From their website, it seems the main work they've done is to change the Titanium flat TCR to a somewhat curved one. They claim this is better, because the increasing resistance at "optimum temperature" reduces strain on battery/reduces power requirements. They also say it works well with mech, VW as well as TC mods - and of course they've got a custom DNA 200 profile to make best use of it.

It all sounds a bit doubtful to me, and if I'd only seen their website I'd be comfortable writing them off as snake oil, like the $1/foot GPlat wire 'revolutionary vaping wire' that turned out to be SS317 welding wire!

However I have also seen them on the DNA 200 forums and there's no doubt they're highly technical guys with a whole lab worth of test equipment. And it would be easy to validate that they've changed the TCR of Titanium and if they have, that's at least proves they have some technical nouse (unless it turns out it's just some other grade of Titanium that already has that curve..)

Anyway, anyone here had experience with the wire?

Only thing I know is what they said to a customer and personally I'll take it with a bucket of salt... Transforming grade 2 into something better than grade 1 through vacuum annealing is something very hard to swallow.

Well in my search for Ti wire I emailed Sweet Spot to see why their product is $30 for 50'. Here is a copy of their letter and see what you think. I've already ordered some Unkamen but this stuff sounds interesting. Here it is.
Hi Pat,


The production conforms to ASTM F67. Our test methodology conforms to ISO5832. Our billets start life as certified gr2 medical grade Ti, and then move into our proprietary vacuum annealing process, to remove o2 impurities in the material substrate. I would like to think we are producing the ONLY vape specific Ti on earth, and are sourcing the purest raw Ti possible. We also ultra sonic/stem clean ALL wire in our own facility. ALL re-spooling, cleaning, packing and QC is done in our facility in California.


Our trace elements are below 0.3%.....and our o2 content is below that of GR1 Ti. Gr1 Ti is not ideal, because it lacks other critical trace H, N and C (hydrogen, nitrogen and carbon) as well as Fe (iron) to properly insulate against premature oxidation. Our total iron content is 0.08%....low enough to avoid iron oxide, but high enough to be durable enough for use on a mech.


Hope that answers some questions.


P.S. our wire finish is shiny/clean….but not polished….we avoid polishing as we don’t want the heat from polishing to infuse any surface contamination. On the issue of cost our wire is actually lower in price (per foot) than the industrial Gr1 Ti sold on amazon…..the amazon wire is uncleaned and wholly inadequate for vaping. Spider Silk is just regular off the shelf gr1 Ti. You will also notice quite a few benefits over Ni wire. Number one no NiO2, cleaner taste (no taste actually) greater durability etc etc….



Ari Mouratides, Owner

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

Has anyone tried this Sweet Spot Vapour stuff? SSV? They're on the DNA 200 early adopters forum, and apparently they've done a lot of work making a custom wire with a special TCR. Based on Titanium but.. different somehow.

But at $1/foot ($33/10m), I am struggling to understand what could be so much better about it than regular Titanium or especially versus Resistherm/Alloy 120.

From their website, it seems the main work they've done is to change the Titanium flat TCR to a somewhat curved one. They claim this is better, because the increasing resistance at "optimum temperature" reduces strain on battery/reduces power requirements. They also say it works well with mech, VW as well as TC mods - and of course they've got a custom DNA 200 profile to make best use of it.

It all sounds a bit doubtful to me, and if I'd only seen their website I'd be comfortable writing them off as snake oil, like the $1/foot GPlat wire 'revolutionary vaping wire' that turned out to be SS317 welding wire!

However I have also seen them on the DNA 200 forums and there's no doubt they're highly technical guys with a whole lab worth of test equipment. And it would be easy to validate that they've changed the TCR of Titanium and if they have, that's at least proves they have some technical nouse (unless it turns out it's just some other grade of Titanium that already has that curve..)

Anyway, anyone here had experience with the wire?

What Sweet Spot Vapor claims about their "proprietary annealing procedure" is pure technical BS. Unfortunately there is always a company willing to exploit the trust of customers and sell fantasy at a high price.

This sort of thing drives me up the wall.

Duane

 

[folkphys]

What Sweet Spot Vapor claims about their "proprietary annealing procedure" is pure technical BS. Unfortunately there is always a company willing to exploit the trust of customers and sell fantasy at a high price.

This sort of thing drives me up the wall.

Duane

In theory, I would certainly agree but.....and here comes a few patently unscientific ramblings that are only lightly tethered to admittedly subjective experiential datums.......that offensively expensive SweetSpot Ti wire has, for me, performed significantly better than the far cheaper jewelry Gr1 stuff. It's mucho easier to work with (read: less springy) and comes out of the package super duper clean -- and stays that way. Plus, coils made with this possibly BS faux-fancy wire have absolutely tended to be more stable and exceedingly consistent (again, for me) on both SXM and DNA40 platforms.

I don't know. I'm no metallurgist. And I've been known to drink a few pints of Koolaid flavored snake oil every now and then. But if the choice is betwixt only those two types of Ti -- and these are the only two I've tried -- I guess I'd have to go with the silly fancy stuff.

Again: I'm just saying.

 

[druckle]

In theory, I would certainly agree but.....and here comes a few patently unscientific ramblings that are only lightly tethered to admittedly subjective experiential datums.......that offensively expensive SweetSpot Ti wire has, for me, performed significantly better than the far cheaper jewelry Gr1 stuff. It's mucho easier to work with (read: less springy) and comes out of the package super duper clean -- and stays that way. Plus, coils made with this possibly BS faux-fancy wire have absolutely tended to be more stable and exceedingly consistent (again, for me) on both SXM and DNA40 platforms.

I don't know. I'm no metallurgist. And I've been known to drink a few pints of Koolaid flavored snake oil every now and then. But if the choice is betwixt only those two types of Ti -- and these are the only two I've tried -- I guess I'd have to go with the silly fancy stuff.

Again: I'm just saying.

folkphys

You are lumping "far cheaper jewelry stuff" as a single entity. Annealed wire from whatever source is less springy than hard drawn wire. . There are lots of titanium wire sources under the category "jewelry stuff". Select a source for true Grade ! Titanium wire that is annealed whether it's "jewelry stuff" or whatever and you get honest superior performance and lower cost. Hard drawn wire performs just as well as annealed wire from a vaping standpoint but some folks find it more difficult to form a coil with. Of course you can heat it slightly and soften it yourself but that's an extra step that lots of folks would rather avoid. Grade 2 wire is a less pure product with less well controlled properties. Charging a premium for it I find inexcusable especially with dishonest technically incorrect description attached.

Duane

 

[druckle]

Double post

 

[TheBloke]

Thanks guys, that's what I figured.

In theory, I would certainly agree but.....and here comes a few patently unscientific ramblings that are only lightly tethered to admittedly subjective experiential datums.......that offensively expensive SweetSpot Ti wire has, for me, performed significantly better than the far cheaper jewelry Gr1 stuff. It's mucho easier to work with (read: less springy) and comes out of the package super duper clean -- and stays that way. Plus, coils made with this possibly BS faux-fancy wire have absolutely tended to be more stable and exceedingly consistent (again, for me) on both SXM and DNA40 platforms.

I don't know. I'm no metallurgist. And I've been known to drink a few pints of Koolaid flavored snake oil every now and then. But if the choice is betwixt only those two types of Ti -- and these are the only two I've tried -- I guess I'd have to go with the silly fancy stuff.

Again: I'm just saying.

From what you've said it sounds like its primary benefits are that it's well annealed and thoroughly cleaned. Stealth Vape's is both of that, and at £7 ($10.80) for 10m (33 feet), it's half the price of SSV.

Or, for £3/10m ($4.65, nearly 5 times cheaper) there's Crazy Wire's which can be cleaned in 30 seconds and while apparently slightly springier than SV, is still perfectly easy to work with without torching. And is available in six gauges, not two like SSV and Stealth.

And both Stealth and Crazy's wire are medical grade, not aimed for jewellery.

So SSV really can't charge those prices based on that. Nor can they charge it based on being "for vapers", because Stealth Vape commissioned theirs specially and they charge half the price.

I should add that it's certainly not cost alone that I care about personally. I paid €13 / $14.50 for 10m of Resistherm wire supplied by Dicodes in Germany. And because it's only available in 29G, I twist it, meaning I am really paying $29 for 10m of usable wire. While I certainly would prefer to pay less, at least there I can see where my money is going - in a wire with unique vaping properties that I can't currently get anywhere else (at least not unless I buy hundreds of meters at once).

I was kind of hoping SSV could claim something special, because I'm all for getting new wires with special properties. But it seems they cannot. Titanium with a non-flat TCR just doesn't sound exciting to me, even assuming their processing claims are credible, which it sounds like they aren't: if a Titanium processing professional and expert (druckle) says their claims are BS, that's more than good enough for me.

Now you've got your SSV I'm sure it'll provide a good vape. But when you run out, I recommend getting replacement Gr 1 Titanium from Stealth or Crazy, or giving Resistherm a try (AKA Alloy 120.)

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Curiosity about the differences apparent in thinner vs. thicker Ti1 led me to playing with the Steam Engine calculator. I decided to go to what I consider two extremes, 32ga vs 26ga wire. The controls I wanted were the same surface area (~100mm²), and the same heat flux (~350mW/mm²). A few surprises (to me, although I am sure a mathematician or electrical engineer has a rational explanation) are that both wires require the same 35watts to achieve that heat flux. The biggest difference is that the 32ga coil comes in at 2.3 ohms, the 26ga coil comes in at .29 ohms.

What did not surprise me was heat capacity, or the amount of mass that must be heated and must cool. The 32ga has a 11.63 heat capacity, while the 26 has a 23.32 heat capacity. In other words, it takes twice as long to heat up, and cool down as the 32ga. The width of the coils is a little different, 26 ga. requiring 8.84 wraps (9/8) coming in at 3.7mm wide contact, and the 32ga requiring 20.75 (21/20) wraps coming in at 4.4mm wide contact. Spaced coils were played with, but didn't really matter.

I then decided to see what effect these two coils would have on the battery life and amperage required. Again, surprisingly, battery life is exactly the same for the two setups at 171 "puffs" of 5 second duration.

What I cannot decipher however, is how the longer ramp up of 26ga affects battery life.
Everything else being somewhat equal, the amp draw on the 32 ga is 4.34, while the amp draw on the 26ga is 12.31. The only thing I can say about that is that you can use your old 10a batteries safely with the 32ga wire, whereas the 26ga clearly is going to need the better high amp batteries.


However, with the 32ga, I can make a DUAL coil setup using the same numbers, doubling the surface area to 200mm² and the effect on the battery is a 8.15 amp draw that will get me 86 puffs. Doing the same with the 26ga, results in a 24 amp draw. Not practical to try to achieve 200mm² surface area in most cases.

I have posted the two sets of charts below for your consideration. On both, the 32ga is on top, the 26ga is on the bottom.

 

[TheBloke]

Interesting research, @LouisLeBeau. I've never really investigated all that heat flux/heat capacity stuff. A few times I've built big fat coils that take more power to heat up, but I've never noticed much practical difference because I've always had enough power in my mod to be able to increase it accordingly.

If you've done larger-wire builds in the past, have you compared flavour with your current 32G builds? That's the prime reason I've personally kept away from thin-wire builds - the fear of lesser flavour. But I don't know if it's a founded fear. Certainly going the opposite way - ie building bigger/fancier coils - I've never really noticed an increase in flavour. I almost always get poor flavour, and the few times I have found it to be particularly good I've never been able to pinpoint why it's better.

Nowadays I almost always just do 8-9 wraps of 26G Titanium or 2x29G Resistherm and have stopped experimenting because it never seems to make much difference. I've been meaning to try a Clapton sometime, but I don't hold out much hope that I'll notice much difference.

I might try a 29G (non-twisted) Resistherm coil later, to see if I can tell any difference to my normal 2x29 builds.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

@TheBloke I have edited my post to reflect that with the 32ga, I can do a DOUBLE coil of the same properties with the same heat up/cool down, with an amp draw of only 8.15. Doing that with 26ga would require 24 amps. I can only assume that 200mm² vs. 100 of surface area is going to produce twice the vapor, so more flavor? I get my initiative to build using thinner gauge (ie more surface area with less heat capacity) from this very well written post on the subject:

My thoughts about sub-ohm and latest VV/VW devices... | E-Cigarette Forum

I am also assuming (knowing full well the dangers of THAT) that the longer ramp up and cool down of thicker gauge may result in a higher degradation of the juice in the wick in proximity of the coil? My experience with Vivi Nova's definitely showed me that "browning" of the juice in the tank via heat from the coil severely muted the juice, to the point that the last third of the tank was so muted, and so indecipherable as to the original flavor, that it required dumping.

As far as flavor vs. gauge, other than the assumptions above, I have no experience. I am waiting on the proper equipment to use Ti, and will play with it once I get it. I'll need to order some 26ga Ti to compare flavor. I have some subtle and complex juices that would really show me the difference. Should be interesting.

 

[petemoss]

My 26 and 28 ga titanium from Unkamen were pretty clean. Not so with the 30ga which was very oily.

 

[KenD]

Curiosity about the differences apparent in thinner vs. thicker Ti1 led me to playing with the Steam Engine calculator. I decided to go to what I consider two extremes, 32ga vs 26ga wire. The controls I wanted were the same surface area (~100mm²), and the same heat flux (~350mW/mm²). A few surprises (to me, although I am sure a mathematician or electrical engineer has a rational explanation) are that both wires require the same 35watts to achieve that heat flux. The biggest difference is that the 32ga coil comes in at 2.3 ohms, the 26ga coil comes in at .29 ohms.

What did not surprise me was heat capacity, or the amount of mass that must be heated and must cool. The 32ga has a 11.63 heat capacity, while the 26 has a 23.32 heat capacity. In other words, it takes twice as long to heat up, and cool down as the 32ga. The width of the coils is a little different, 26 ga. requiring 8.84 wraps (9/8) coming in at 3.7mm wide contact, and the 32ga requiring 20.75 (21/20) wraps coming in at 4.4mm wide contact. Spaced coils were played with, but didn't really matter.

I then decided to see what effect these two coils would have on the battery life and amperage required. Again, surprisingly, battery life is exactly the same for the two setups at 171 "puffs" of 5 second duration.

What I cannot decipher however, is how the longer ramp up of 26ga affects battery life.
Everything else being somewhat equal, the amp draw on the 32 ga is 4.34, while the amp draw on the 26ga is 12.31. The only thing I can say about that is that you can use your old 10a batteries safely with the 32ga wire, whereas the 26ga clearly is going to need the better high amp batteries.


However, with the 32ga, I can make a DUAL coil setup using the same numbers, doubling the surface area to 200mm² and the effect on the battery is a 8.15 amp draw that will get me 86 puffs. Doing the same with the 26ga, results in a 24 amp draw. Not practical to try to achieve 200mm² surface area in most cases.

I have posted the two sets of charts below for your consideration. On both, the 32ga is on top, the 26ga is on the bottom.

The amp draw at the battery will be identical though. With regulated mods only the watts and battery charge level (lower charge = higher amp draw) determine the amp draw.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

 

[LouisLeBeau]

The amp draw at the battery will be identical though. With regulated mods only the watts and battery charge level (lower charge = higher amp draw) determine the amp draw.
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

Well then, I guess I can't really see the benefit or detriment of any particular gauge outside of the length of time necessary for the coil to cool. Even that is manipulable by drawing air over the un-charged coil after releasing the fire button I would think. So many variables, so little time...

 

[LouisLeBeau]

My 26 and 28 ga titanium from Unkamen were pretty clean. Not so with the 30ga which was very oily.

UGH! I guess I'll have to clean that 30 and 32 gauge I have coming quite thoroughly. Maybe a good boiling after wipedown is in order.