To Get a Provari....Or Not?

[dam718]

The segmented LCD display of this Dicodes Dani mod looks awfully familiar... So do the menu options...

If the ProVari is so outdated, why go through such painstaking efforts to mimic the look and behavior of the screen / menu system?

At least the Chinese are trying new stuff with OLED on most of the new mods, the eVic is still pretty revolutionary (albeit useless and cheap), and the dna 20 (And it's old papa Darwin) are trying to break the mold.

A lot of folks bad mouth the ProVari... That's bunk... It is silly to deny that the ProVari is one of the top selling, best designed, best built, best performing, and best backed regulated mods in this industry. There are other mods that are just as good, maybe even one or two that are better... Regardless, the ProVari is still, all these years later, one of the top mods on the market.

The real question now should be... Should I pay 3x the price for a Wizard Evolved? Should I wait an undetermined length of time for a Semovar? Can anyone translate these pages and tell me if the Dani thing is available to customers in the US? To those questions the answer would still be the same...

Just get a ProVari...

 

[The Ocelot]

The segmented LCD display of this Dicodes Dani mod looks awfully familiar... So do the menu options...

If the ProVari is so outdated, why go through such painstaking efforts to mimic the look and behavior of the screen / menu system?

At least the Chinese are trying new stuff with OLED on most of the new mods, the eVic is still pretty revolutionary (albeit useless and cheap), and the DNA 20 (And it's old papa Darwin) are trying to break the mold.

A lot of folks bad mouth the ProVari... That's bunk... It is silly to deny that the ProVari is one of the top selling, best designed, best built, best performing, and best backed regulated mods in this industry. There are other mods that are just as good, maybe even one or two that are better... Regardless, the ProVari is still, all these years later, one of the top mods on the market.

The real question now should be... Should I pay 3x the price for a Wizard Evolved? Should I wait an undetermined length of time for a Semovar? Can anyone translate these pages and tell me if the Dani thing is available to customers in the US? To those questions the answer would still be the same...

Just get a ProVari...

Fanbird

...​

 

[sawlight]

VW Akkuträger Dicodes Dani: ein kleines Dilemma » Mountain Prophet

I read all of that, interesting, it's $240 ($169EURO's), doesn't seem that accurate, is adjustable only in 1 watt increments and turns non-magnetic wire into inductors! I'm thinking A/C isn't the future at all!
Not a device I'd buy, or even think about recommending to anyone!

 

[sawlight]

Thanks!

I tried to make sense of the German to English translation, didn't understand much of it.

Interesting that it is only VW.
Even more interesting, 1 button, and simple LED screen much like the Provari

View attachment 289704View attachment 289705View attachment 289706

Yeah, I didn't mention that yet, but aren't those two of the three biggest complaints about the Provari?

 

[sandt38]

Get it! You need to have one for its reliability and the simple fact that it puts out FLAT pure DC bliss compared to the PWM crap most of the Chinese mods are using.

Interesting. I thought the Provari was PWM at 800 cycles.

 

[The Ocelot]

Interesting. I thought the Provari was PWM at 800 cycles.

You are correct.

ProVari uses PWM cycling at 800hz. Compared to the ≈ 33.3hz of the Chinese chips, it might be mistaken for DC.

 

[JCloud29]

and if a new update comes out and it's within the year, just send it back and they will upgrade it free of charge and that's why they are the Ferrari of vaping.

My bad, I should of clarified this a bit more. So today, as I was talking to a fellow vaper at the local shop, we got to talking about ProVari's and what not. He said being that he took out the extended warranty, that the company will upgrade, free of charge if a new update to the board comes out within that one year. As far as official documentation, I haven't seen any. So pretty much take it for what it's worth I guess lol. I would imagine he meant that if it was a normal warranty issue they would fix it free of charge.

 

[The Ocelot]

Ha!

Sometimes I have to read your posts a few times to catch the sarcasm

 

[sandt38]

You are correct.

ProVari uses PWM cycling at 800hz. Compared to the ≈ 33.3hz of the Chinese chips, it might be mistaken for DC.

Pulse width modulated DC current is still DC current. And not all Chinese chips are 33.3Hz.

 

[dam718]

Pulse width modulated DC current is still DC current. And not all Chinese chips are 33.3Hz.

Comparing the PWM of the ProVari to most of the Chinese mods is like comparing apples and oranges. The waveforms aren't even close. There's a thread somewhere that pretty clearly depicts the difference, on an old school o-scope, but it's still plain as day. On a modern o-scope using the same time slice, you would see a straight line from the ProVari at the set voltage +/- .01V. The Chinese mods, for the most part jump from 0V to 6V... Just not a fair comparison. ProVari uses PWM, yes... Far better implementation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sandt38]

Comparing the PWM of the ProVari to most of the Chinese mods is like comparing apples and oranges. The waveforms aren't even close. There's a thread somewhere that pretty clearly depicts the difference, on an old school o-scope, but it's still plain as day. On a modern o-scope using the same time slice, you would see a straight line from the ProVari at the set voltage +/- .01V. The Chinese mods, for the most part jump from 0V to 6V... Just not a fair comparison. ProVari uses PWM, yes... Far better implementation

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am familiar with oscilloscope patterns. I look at them nearly every day. While a slow, inexpensive scope might show a straight line a scope like I use will show a simple, albeit faster, PWM signal. My scope reads in microseconds.

My scope is incorporated into the Snap-On unit on the left. I also have a Pico-scope, but prefer the portability of the 4 channel all inclusive Verus.

Again, a PWM DC signal is still just a PWM signal, and to call it anything else is simply false.

I am not arguing that an 800 cycle signal is no different from a 33.3 cycle signal... it clearly is, but there is no need for false information when trying to justify or invalidate someone's opinion.

 

[sandt38]

Oh, and FWIW, I am not arguing against a Provari. I am actually very interested in this unit myself. I am trying to read as much as I can about various mods so I can buy the best of the best. In that regard I tend to be a bit of an elitist, but at the same time I do like to consider the point of diminishing returns. I am still very new to vaping, so I am learning.

Right now the Dicodes has me intrigued as they use AC current to control voltage. An excerpt from their white paper reads as such...

The dicodes electronic control unit is world-wide the only one , which works with a brand new technology enabling the device to handle high power in a very small volume. The power output is achieved by a true alternating current (+/- relative to housing or ground) and not with an adjusted voltage or a pulse-width –modulated constant voltage.

Taken from this white paper.

Any analog switching will be smoother and warmer than a digital switch. The best indicator of this can be found when comparing the warmth and natural repoduction of music when played through tubes rather than digital transistors. I just wonder if this would translate as well into the vaping world as it does into just about everything else.

 

[sawlight]

VW Akkuträger Dicodes Dani: ein kleines Dilemma » Mountain Prophet

I read all of that, interesting, it's $240 ($169EURO's), doesn't seem that accurate, is adjustable only in 1 watt increments and turns non-magnetic wire into inductors! I'm thinking A/C isn't the future at all!
Not a device I'd buy, or even think about recommending to anyone!

Oh, and FWIW, I am not arguing against a Provari. I am actually very interested in this unit myself. I am trying to read as much as I can about various mods so I can buy the best of the best. In that regard I tend to be a bit of an elitist, but at the same time I do like to consider the point of diminishing returns. I am still very new to vaping, so I am learning.

Right now the Dicodes has me intrigued as they use AC current to control voltage. An excerpt from their white paper reads as such...



Taken from this white paper.

Any analog switching will be smoother and warmer than a digital switch. The best indicator of this can be found when comparing the warmth and natural repoduction of music when played through tubes rather than digital transistors. I just wonder if this would translate as well into the vaping world as it does into just about everything else.

Please take the time to translate and read the article linked above, it's rather hard to get through it all, I must admit, but the technical aspect of it was very enlightening! He was having problems with non-magnetic wire causing inductance and fluctuating the power. He also had problems burning the coils of certain materials at high wattages. Then, from what I could tell at least, the fluctuation on the scope was rather severe.
It's also only adjustable in 1 watt increments and doesn't seem to be that accurate at that stage even, from his own findings.
He said he'd recommend it, but from what I read, I sure wouldn't.
Then the $240 price, plus shipping, after you find one that will ship it to the states, I was out before we even got there!

 

[The Ocelot]

Get it! You need to have one for its reliability and the simple fact that it puts out FLAT pure DC bliss compared to the PWM crap most of the Chinese mods are using...

Interesting. I thought the Provari was PWM at 800 cycles.

You are correct.

ProVari uses PWM cycling at 800hz. Compared to the ≈ 33.3hz of the Chinese chips, it might be mistaken for DC.

Pulse width modulated DC current is still DC current. And not all Chinese chips are 33.3Hz.

I apologize for agreeing with you I wrote "DC" in reference to what Jargon posted, but I didn't want to use the word "flat" because I'm not sure if it is the correct term and figured it was obvious I meant that 800hz compared to ≈ 33.3hz might seem like it wasn't PMW due to the lack of perceivable pulses. And I didn't say all of the Chinese chips were ≈ 33.3hz, since again I was commenting on the prior post. I think it's pretty safe to assume that, "the PWM crap most of the Chinese mods are using is" is referring to the ≈ 33.3hz devices often recommended as less expensive alternatives to a ProVari.

The only reason I posted at all is because some members are under the misimpression that the ProVari doesn't use PWM. Again, I'm sorry for concurring with you, as I see from your later posts that you are well aware the ProVari cycles at 800hz and your post suggesting you weren't sure was disingenuous.

 

[sandt38]

Please take the time to translate and read the article linked above, it's rather hard to get through it all, I must admit, but the technical aspect of it was very enlightening! He was having problems with non-magnetic wire causing inductance and fluctuating the power. He also had problems burning the coils of certain materials at high wattages. Then, from what I could tell at least, the fluctuation on the scope was rather severe.
It's also only adjustable in 1 watt increments and doesn't seem to be that accurate at that stage even, from his own findings.
He said he'd recommend it, but from what I read, I sure wouldn't.
Then the $240 price, plus shipping, after you find one that will ship it to the states, I was out before we even got there!

Attempting to read that was quite painful, and I admit I had to stop quickly very to in the opinion review . Sorry, I had to attempt my own google translation there. I gathered very little from the translation, but I did see terminology that I am accustomed to like skin effect, and inductance (I am also an audio geek, and love speaker design). Neither of these phenomena are desirable, although after thinking about it they are inherent weaknesses in ac saturated coils. Skin effect and inductance are controllable, but filtering can be difficult, particularly in such tiny spaces.

If he really pulled these patterns off of a device that is "true AC", that is really pitiful. It appears to be a simple switched coil loading and being shut down... and it appears to be DC current rather than AC. A true AC signal would be a sine wave, similar to ~. I did see how he went through a few scopes because they were incapable of reading at the speeds required, so I question his findings to a certain extent. I just really wish I could get a better translation.

 

[dam718]

I am familiar with oscilloscope patterns. I look at them nearly every day. While a slow, inexpensive scope might show a straight line a scope like I use will show a simple, albeit faster, PWM signal. My scope reads in microseconds.

My scope is incorporated into the Snap-On unit on the left. I also have a Pico-scope, but prefer the portability of the 4 channel all inclusive Verus.

Again, a PWM DC signal is still just a PWM signal, and to call it anything else is simply false.

I am not arguing that an 800 cycle signal is no different from a 33.3 cycle signal... it clearly is, but there is no need for false information when trying to justify or invalidate someone's opinion.

While I appreciate the pictures of your test equipment, without specific knowledge of the output signal of a ProVari compared to the output signal of a Vamo, for example, saying I am putting out false information is a bit ironic... I'm not necessarily trying to validate anyones claim, or discredit anyone for that matter... The information is out there, before saying that we (who have been studying the ProVari vs (Put Chinese mod here) for years) are wrong or false, I would suggest doing a bit of research yourself.

I don't need lessons in PWM theory, as I am very familiar (It's also what I do for a living...) what I want you to look for is the specific PWM output signal of a Vamo (or any other 33.3 Hz Chinese mod) compared to the output signal of a ProVari... See for yourself that they are nowhere near the same.

 

[stevegmu]

Pretty sure P. Busardo knows what he's doing-

 

[dam718]

The first couple of posts in this thread depict it very well... The scope is old Tektronix (what I learned on 30 years ago...) but they are still great scopes, very capable of detecting the full wave form of an 800Hz signal...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provari/381232-provari-oscope-vs-vamo.html

You can see in the 4th pic down the very slight wiggle centered at 3V... That signal has the time and range zoomed in the last pic (second post) showing a much different waveform than the square waves of the Vamo... Almost all of the current Chinese mods use this on/off duty cycle... You can clearly see that is not what the ProVari does... It has much better buffering

 

[PLANofMAN]

I am not arguing that an 800 cycle signal is no different from a 33.3 cycle signal... it clearly is, but there is no need for false information when trying to justify or invalidate someone's opinion.

What false info? Anyways, here's the pics.

Was discussed a bit on another thread. We know the Vamo fires at 37hz and the Provari at 800hz. Here is something I found that Ill bet not many know. Every Vamo pulse is at 6v. Each time it fires (37 times a second) this is what it does. How it achieves different voltages is how long it stays on vs how long its off. You will see in the following pictures (oscope set to 2v per square) that at 3v, the vamo fires 6v 50% of the time, at 4.5v it fires 7v 75% of the time, and at 6v it fires about 95-97% of the time. The provari fires so often that at slower time stamps, it looks like a solid line. When it fires @ 3v, its 3v. When 4.5 its 4.5 so forth and so on. The line actually goes up and down the scale with voltage instead of making an average out of 6 and 0v. I did manage to get a good look at the ProV's pulses with a little adjusting. I had it down to .2V per square making the voltage variation only in the neighborhood of .05v. And it does this 800 times a second.

Here is the Vamo firing at 3v. 3 squares up from center is 6v and center line is 0v. Notice that is 50% on and 50% off.
View attachment 178263
Here is a firing at 4.5v Notice the time up is about 75% now.
View attachment 178264
Here is the Vamo at 6. It hardly has any down time at all.
View attachment 178265
Now the ProV at 3v.
View attachment 178266
and at 6v.
View attachment 178267

Edit: beaten.

 

[sandt38]

I apologize for agreeing with you I wrote "DC" in reference to what Jargon posted, but I didn't want to use the word "flat" because I'm not sure if it is the correct term and figured it was obvious I meant that 800hz compared to ≈ 33.3hz might seem like it wasn't PMW due to the lack of perceivable pulses. And I didn't say all of the Chinese chips were ≈ 33.3hz, since again I was commenting on the prior post. I think it's pretty safe to assume that, "the PWM crap most of the Chinese mods are using is" is referring to the ≈ 33.3hz devices often recommended as less expensive alternatives to a ProVari.

The only reason I posted at all is because some members are under the misimpression that the ProVari doesn't use PWM. Again, I'm sorry for concurring with you, as I see from your later posts that you are well aware the ProVari cycles at 800hz and your post suggesting you weren't sure was disingenuous.

No, we're cool. I understand what you were saying, but I am being literal here... Please bear with me as I explain;

I think this bolded statement is a big issue that has arisen from the Provari crowd. It is fine for someone to truly enjoy something that they own, but there is no need to glorify the item with misinformation or exaggeration. I just want to see facts. In everything there is objective information, and subjective information. I am here for objective... You might like pink, I like black. Neither one of us is wrong. But pink is a mix of red and white... that is a fact.

Every forum has it's favorite. On that forum opposing voices are quelled, and naysayers ridden until they leave, or shut up. I am a moderator on several audio forums, and have seen the rise and fall of 'the greatest "X" ever' time and time again. The Provari crowd here has the upper hand, clearly. So I have to sift through the blind rabid following and actually see what makes the device tick. For that I like honest and detailed information.

I don't question the build quality of the device, and perhaps I should have clarified that while not an EE, I have been around electricity and complex circuits for over 20 years (I started with an old HP analog scope that weighed ~150 pounds and needed it's own cart). I have been scoping everything I can for the better part of the last 10 years. I am the guy that the local dealerships send cars to that they can't fix. I am very detail oriented.

Again, I am not trying to be a douche, but I am very interested in learning what devices will best suit me. I am currently using an eVic to gather information on my habits so I can tailor my final device to best suit my needs and save me money in the long run... plus it is a fun device. It allows me to play with VV and VW as well. Plus if I cook it when I start rebuilding it is no real big deal.

I will try some form of each type of device, however I am not going to spend $200 on a few of each design just to see what will work best for me. I want one purchase, and I want it to be the device for me. I am grabbing a mechanical in the near future (it will be a nice high end unit I am stuck on ChiYou and Nemesis but have the Nem in the lead) but they are far simpler than a VV or VW mod. VV and VW presents a vast learning curve.

So I am in the middle of a HUGE lesson here, and I look to people like YOU, "old school" forum members with a lot more experience than I for guidance. I must also add that the OP is looking for the same information.